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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Info updates before Rybka-Zappa game 1
- - By Alkelele (***) Date 2007-09-20 11:42
A few info updates for what it's worth.

The games will be played in the huge commentary hall next to the human WC hall. This way, there will not arise any problems if a game lasts 150 moves with increment.

The morning games will start at 10am, which is 5pm Central European time.

The games will be played on remote 8-core computers for the time being. Every measure is taken to make sure that the specs of the remote machines are as similar as possible.

Broadcast of the games should be available on the official WC site, if every promise holds true. Perhaps this will not be in order for the 1st round game. If so, perhaps Erdo can keep Harvey up-to-date via skype, and Harvey could relay the game on playchess.

I'm no prophet, but it's not unthinkable that the 1st game could be slightly delayed beyond 10am. Anyway, do check in early, as the game will probably end 0-1 not too long after Erdo has left book (while we're still in book :P). Just kidding, I think it's going to be a very close and exciting match, and Jeroen and I are surely wetting our pants wondering what Erdo might have prepared. Well, we'll see soon :-)

I have taken many funny pictures already, but I have not had time (or energy) to figure out how to minimize them before uploading them here on the forum. I hope to do this after round 1.

A video of the prematch conference is available at chessvibes.com. It's quite interesting. A funny followup was a journalist asking Kramnik and Aronian if they thought that Erdo was right in saying that Rybka or Zappa playing in the human WC would crush them all.

The info so far before the match has been very lacking, but we'll do our best to try and catch up and provide good coverage at least here in the Rybka forum in the following days.

So, enjoy the Rybka vs. Zappa showdown!
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-09-20 13:16
Ok - so as I am out of touch with Erdo at the moment.

I am broadcasting this on Playchess?? I am happy to do this but please ask me.

So Erdo is using my machine and Vas the 5355 of Lukas so all is =?

I am starting to get mildly annoyed here?

Harvey
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 14:10
Hi Harvey,

Are you broadcasting this on Playchess?

Regards,

Robert
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-09-20 14:16
Hi Robert,

yes I will broadcast it on Playchess today. i will also send my bill to Convekta for machine rental and time to do this. To be honest I am happy to do this but the organisation stinks.

I will be talking to erdo on Skype during the game and will aslo relay comments and as he will be with vas I am sure I can relay his comments also!

Best Wishes,

Harvey
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-09-20 14:21
To understand this:
The hardware that will play are not identical and also the one PC it is from you?

What PC is the one that you gave? Also the other is 8x Xeon 5355?
Also since you said that Erdo will use your machine, why you say that you will send to Convecta the bill for machine rental? Convecta is the opposite team....
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-09-20 14:24
Hi George,

Convekta were supposed to be providing the 2 machine that have not arrived in Mexico.

Harvey
Parent - - By Alkelele (***) Date 2007-09-20 14:30
The two machines supposed to be used are hold up at the border due to some quite ridiculous paper-work. In order to play by remote, Erdo suggested he could use Harvey's machine. On our side we have practically identical machine(s) in the possession of Lukas. We're working hard to solve everything in time (or shortly after :-)), but at least it should be clear that the remote machines are pretty much completely equal.
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-09-20 14:41
Yes agreed now.

1 proposal was that the match was played on 2 machines owned by Lukas 2 5365 machines. To me this seems crazy when you look at why the match v junior was cancelled.

So I proposed that my 5355 v Lukas's 5355 be used this amazingly seems to have been received as  a bad idea?! But now this is what both teams are striving for.

Although I am not sure why I am giving so much time to this.

Harvey
Parent - By Alkelele (***) Date 2007-09-20 14:45 Edited 2007-09-20 14:48
No, we think it's a great idea (given the circumstances) :-) OK, I'm just trying to explain that the machines to be used are equal - and this has been a clear condition in all considerations once it was clear that remote play was going to be the (hopefully temporary) solution.

Btw, it's really great if you are going to relay the game and maybe Erdo's comments - we are trying to get a broadcast up on the official site right now as well, of course.

OK, really, no arguments intended, I just wanted to provide somewhat decent information for people interested in the match :-)
Parent - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-09-20 14:52
I am surprised that these border issues were not expected?

I was telling Anthony earlier about trying to get 164 boxes from london into Afghanistan after 9/11 via Berlin, Munich, Istanbul and Tajikistan - ending up on a wooden raft accross a river. But to expect to just walk into Mexico....

Maybe I should open a Chess Computer media Consultancy company - would have been less work than I have done today :)

Best Wishes,

Harvey
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 14:28
Harvey,

Have you posted the details of your machine? Please provide a link or a short description if you can. I'm interested in seeing how much of a handicap Zappa is giving to Rybka in the hardware arena (I doubt you are as obsessed with performance as Lukas).

My personal feeling has been that the argument against using remote computers to prevent cheating has been a sham all along and was designed to prevent having to go up against an engine that scales better than Rybka on a 16-core platform.

Having problems shipping electronics into central and south american countries is nothing new. Having to pay huge duties to get the equipment in is also pretty common (I know of a case where 200% duty was applied to some oscilloscopes that were sent into Brazil for a short term job).

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2007-09-20 14:34
I have put the machine details in the thread on the Hiarcs forum.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 21:29
Thanks. Sorry I missed that the first time.

Alan
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 16:35 Edited 2007-09-20 16:46
It will all end up in some Mexican Major Generals garage! I'm telling you- Anthony's lucky if he doesn't get picked up and interrogated- " Who is this Zapatista " Zappa " ? Mr. Cozzie-and, where can we find him- Please! Don't tell use he is a Chess Programmer. We are not stupid.

If he wins the tornament it will cost him $10Gs to get out of a Mexican Jail.

That is a really bad name for a chess program to be played in Mexico.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) [il] Date 2007-09-20 16:42
I think that this is not correct because zappa with 8 processors is probably stronger than Junior with 16 processors.

There is also another difference between the zappa case and the Junior case.

Zappa maxico is available to the public so people can compare Zappa maxico moves with the match moves and it can help to detect cheating.
In the case of Junior it was not the case.

Uri
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 17:26
I think that this is not correct because zappa with 8 processors is probably stronger than Junior with 16 processors.

This is a great example of a poorly constructed argument. Zappa would almost certainly benefit more from going to 16 cores than Rybka (which probably wouldn't benefit much at all). It would be reasonable to expect Junior to scale better too since the Junior team has had several opportunities to test on Intel's Caneland processor and since they prefer this platform when they can choose anything they want.

There is no claim, explicit or implicit, that this advantage from running with more cores will boost either engine enough to close the gap with Rybka. Most likely Rybka would retain a substantial advantage over Junior and a small advantage over Zappa. In either case, the advantage might not be decisive in a short match.

There is also another difference between the zappa case and the Junior case.

Zappa maxico is available to the public so people can compare Zappa maxico moves with the match moves and it can help to detect cheating.
In the case of Junior it was not the case.


This argument assumes that one is only concerned about the Zappa team cheating. Surely this is not a satisfactory result, even to you?

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) [il] Date 2007-09-20 17:36
I think that there is no big risk about rybka's cheating.
The main risk of cheating is simply if the opponent of rybka use superior rybka to generate moves.

I also think that the rybka team has no problem to release the version that play in the match later together with rybka3
so people will be able to check later.

Uri
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 17:57 Edited 2007-09-20 17:59
Ah, you assume that the people with an obvious advantage wouldn't cheat, but I have a quick counter-example:

In 1972 Richard Nixon was running for president against George McGovern. Everyone expected a landslide for Nixon, and sure enough, that's how the election turned out. That didn't stop Nixon from sending G. Gordon Liddy and friends into the Watergate Hotel to collect potentially damaging information on his opponents.

It turns out, this isn't even unusual. There were some studies on cheating in bridge that showed a positive correlation between the strength of a team and the probability that they were cheating in the bidding process.

As far as checking Rybka's results, remember they believe they are half way between 2.3.2a and version 3, and I've seen no plans to release the intermediary versions.

Going full circle, I agree there is only a minuscule risk that any of the teams would be cheating in this event (Rybka, Zappa, or Junior). I maintain that this was only a poor excuse not to run the competition on 16-way Caneland machines at Intel's London office.

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 20:58 Edited 2007-09-20 21:07
Man-Now! Those were the good old days-When liberals were "really" liberals (Statesman) and the country knew how to deal with the bad guys!

However, I must admit that was a brief moment or spasm, if you will, in this country's history. Prior to that even Phil Oaks was writing jaunty little ditties like -" love me Love me I'M a Liberal."
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 21:28
The funny thing is, that in both 1968 and 1972 I can distinctly remember people complaining that they didn't have a real choice!

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2007-09-20 21:30
Ah yes, 1972, I remember it well.  On election night I was getting out the vote for Nixon...in San Francisco!  Talk about fighting an uphill battle! 
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 21:38
Did you feel a need to go to one of the few places where McGovern wasn't crushed, or where you already there? I will be checking to see if there was a Nelson Hernandez associated with the flower power movement at Berkeley! :-)

Regards,
Alan
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2007-09-21 00:49
Grew up in S.F.  Lived 36 years of my life somewhere between Santa Rosa in the north and Monterey in the south, but 31 of those years in The City proper.  I am a die-hard Giants fan and inveterate, unrepentant Barry Bonds defender.  It used to be amusing to read the candidate biographies every election; there might be 60 people running for a seat on the 11-seat Board of Supervisors, but not one, not a single one would claim to be a conservative.  There are now three parties represented in San Francisco: Mainstream Left, Radical Left and Crazy Left.  I think it all goes back to Leninists and Trotskyites.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2007-09-20 21:32
Come to think of it, every single election campaign I have ever been involved in has ended up with my candidate indicted or disgraced. 
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 21:42
At first I didn't get your point. Out here, politicians being indicted or disgraced is pretty common. Its only considered to be an embarrassment if you get thrown out without raking in a reasonable sum of money first!

Alan
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 14:42 Edited 2007-09-20 14:46
Hi Harvey,

Good to hear from you! I am sure you will make many folks happy. It should be an interesting game-at high noon for my time zone-very fitting. However, it is hard to imagine Rybka as a ' Gary Cooper personality ' but, if one really thinks about it, one could  transposition Grace Kelly's character (after all she does-blow away the bad guy) in Gary Cooper's fishy persona.

In this case we could have Rybka a trans-sexual fish-Marshal, who has tracked Zappa-Mexico-who is of course a "  Zapatista " and must be liquidated (have to use modern terms here) to a Mexico city hotel- We can call it " Check Mate. "   (If Zappa wins, call it " Zapped " what the hell do I know?)
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 14:19
Hi Dagh,

For those who don't know, that includes myself- what is the " WC " site- what is the anacronym stand for?

Robert
Parent - - By Zruty (*****) [ru] Date 2007-09-20 14:20
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 14:23
Hi Zruty,

Thank you! :-)

Robert
Parent - By FWCC (***) [us] Date 2007-09-20 14:27
Thank you Robert is that time 10am Eastern?Looks like the games are a little late if 10am Eastern.But thank you for the relay on Playchess.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) [de] Date 2007-09-20 14:43
"A funny followup was a journalist asking Kramnik and Aronian if they thought that Erdo was right in saying that Rybka or Zappa playing in the human WC would crush them all."
What was their reply? :)
Parent - By kosulin (*) [us] Date 2007-09-20 18:14
Kramnik said that of course Rybka would be considered a favorite, but he doubts it would not lose a single game.
By the way, I like how Vas described chess engines: a player with rating 2100 and time control of 100 years per move.
Parent - - By Dadi Jonsson (Silver) [is] Date 2007-09-21 12:05
Here is a quote I found (World chess championship hosts computer 10-match encounter):

Kramnik said on Wednesday that computers are stronger than human beings. It is not necessary to match human beings against computers.

Armenian GM Levon Aronian said "our opening preparation is better than the computers'.
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-09-21 13:26
Now that has to be a first- The Chinese " People's Daily" covering the match.
 
Parent - - By Sesse (****) [no] Date 2007-09-20 15:21
I really cannot find this being relayed anywhere. Does someone have a direct URL?

/* Steinar */
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 16:26
Download ChessBase light 2007 and click on to play chess as a guest go to broadcast games and look for Rybka vs Zappa.
Parent - By Sesse (****) [no] Date 2007-09-20 17:14
Sorry, I should have mentioned that I'm on Linux, so Windows software is right out. :-) Anyhow, the ChessOK thing works okayish, especially as you can extract a PGN which can be used for auto-relay.

/* Steinar */
Parent - By pawformation (*) [us] Date 2007-09-20 17:21
Vas- Did you teach Rybka how to gain the opposition? From game 1 with Zappa...

56. Kh3 Nc6 57. Bh8 Kf7
(58. g4 Ke6 59. Kg3 Kf7 60. g5 Kg6 61. Bf6 Kf5 62. Kf3 Kg6 63. Ra8 Kf5 64. Ra6 Kg6 Rybka v2.3.2h3.mp.x64 (0:04.13)+0.00|d28)
[*]
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 17:40 Edited 2007-09-20 17:43
Okay! So? What shall we call the first day at the Hotel " Zappa vs Rybka "  Fish and chips ?  Harvey would like that one. Zappa does the Zippy-While Rybka Swims the bowl? Is chess on the agenda for tomorrow? May be you folks need to drink a bottle of Tequila before you start.
Parent - - By oudheusa (*****) [nl] Date 2007-09-20 19:10
Where are the links with the comments from Kramnik?

As strong as he is, he will not win one game against Rybka!

And will we see Rybka-Zappa novelties applied in the WC matches?!!
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 20:53
Hi oudheusa,

Yeah! I know-it never happened -it never got through Mexican customs!!!
Parent - - By FWCC (***) [us] Date 2007-09-20 22:18
Zappa came out swinging today.That was a nice game.Rybka kept the equilibrium during the game despite the massive onslaught.Things looked really dangerous but good defense by Rybka prevailed.She has white tomorrow so look out!!
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-09-20 22:47 Edited 2007-09-20 22:53
Yes! Unfortunately, I have appointments scheduled the entire day. I hope when I get back in the afternoon there is good news. Rybka has to prevail-at least for this season. I hope this is not a premature venture. Having Rybka only mid-way developed into her 3.0 version and entering her into this match leaves me wondering. For promo purposes it has to be a knockout-that is more important that $10G's-after the fat lady sings- That is the way I see it.

By the way-Dagh-Athough, there is a lot of great imput at the " Beta " still, miss your imput.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Info updates before Rybka-Zappa game 1

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