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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Correspondence Chess / Vytron Vs. Bobby C (Nightmare challenge) 1/2-1/2
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-10 01:11 Edited 2010-04-15 20:27
The position comes from here, where we missed a win (or not?!) by playing 45...Rd8??

Yes, this means we're probably on a position that is won by Black, the challenge is to defend the position, let's see if I manage to do it.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 c5 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d4 d5 8. cxd5 exd5 9. dxc5 Bxc5 10. Bg5 Be6 11. Rc1 Be7 12. Nd4 h6 13. Be3 Qd7 14. Nxe6 fxe6 15. Bh3 Rfe8 16. Nb5 Bd8 17. Qb3 Na5 18. Qd3 Nc4 19. Rxc4 dxc4 20. Qxc4 Qd5 21. Rc1 a6 22. Qxd5 exd5 23. Nd6 Re7 24. b3 b5 25. Kg2 h5 26. Bc8 Rc7 27. Rxc7 Bxc7 28. Be6+ Kf8 29. Nf5 Bd6 30. Nh4 a5 31. Ng6+ Ke8 32. Bd4 Ra6 33. Bf5 Rc6 34. Bd3 Kf7 35. Bxb5 Rc2 36. a4 Ne4 37. Bd3 Rc8 38. Nh4 Bc5 39. Ba1 Rb8 40. Bc2 g5 41. Nf3 Ke6 42. e3 g4 43. Ne5 Rc8 44. Bxe4 dxe4 45. Nc4 Kd5

2r5/8/8/p1bk3p/P1N1p1p1/1P2P1P1/5PKP/B7 w - -
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-10 04:03
Ok so it is whites move. Before you move run some AN with different engines. Also we can play this two ways. First one is that me and you play it out like we were playing a normal game and the second one is we along with everyone who wants to help each other. My goal in playing this game out is to find out 100% if black can win. I prefer an open type game but it's up to you since you accepted the challenge. I think two of the moves white can look at are 46.Bc3 and 46.Bf6 but I am not sure what whites best plan is.
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-10 06:34
Yeah, let's try a normal game first, hopefully I draw it ;), if I lose and you're not satisfied we can open the holes and try to plug any holes that I missed.
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-10 06:54
I need to rediscover the winning idea for black. If I can remember correctly after 45...Kd5 chess engines still had to avoid a lot of drawing traps. The key here is that engines poorly evaluate the endgame due to the imbalanced material.

I guess whenever your ready you can make your move.
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-10 08:42
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 c5 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d4 d5 8. cxd5 exd5 9. dxc5 Bxc5 10. Bg5 Be6 11. Rc1 Be7 12. Nd4 h6 13. Be3 Qd7 14. Nxe6 fxe6 15. Bh3 Rfe8 16. Nb5 Bd8 17. Qb3 Na5 18. Qd3 Nc4 19. Rxc4 dxc4 20. Qxc4 Qd5 21. Rc1 a6 22. Qxd5 exd5 23. Nd6 Re7 24. b3 b5 25. Kg2 h5 26. Bc8 Rc7 27. Rxc7 Bxc7 28. Be6+ Kf8 29. Nf5 Bd6 30. Nh4 a5 31. Ng6+ Ke8 32. Bd4 Ra6 33. Bf5 Rc6 34. Bd3 Kf7 35. Bxb5 Rc2 36. a4 Ne4 37. Bd3 Rc8 38. Nh4 Bc5 39. Ba1 Rb8 40. Bc2 g5 41. Nf3 Ke6 42. e3 g4 43. Ne5 Rc8 44. Bxe4 dxe4 45. Nc4 Kd5 46. Bf6

2r5/8/5B2/p1bk3p/P1N1p1p1/1P2P1P1/5PKP/8 b - -
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-10 21:18
This is really hard but I think I have found the right idea. I think this first move might be more critical then I previously thought. Anyways it is the obvious one to chess engines. If anyone is following this game wondering why's its a problem with the eval below -1.00 then they should follow the eval line all the way out and find out that these chess engines want to walk you straight into a draw.

46...Rb8
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-11 02:13
1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 c5 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d4 d5 8. cxd5 exd5 9. dxc5 Bxc5 10. Bg5 Be6 11. Rc1 Be7 12. Nd4 h6 13. Be3 Qd7 14. Nxe6 fxe6 15. Bh3 Rfe8 16. Nb5 Bd8 17. Qb3 Na5 18. Qd3 Nc4 19. Rxc4 dxc4 20. Qxc4 Qd5 21. Rc1 a6 22. Qxd5 exd5 23. Nd6 Re7 24. b3 b5 25. Kg2 h5 26. Bc8 Rc7 27. Rxc7 Bxc7 28. Be6+ Kf8 29. Nf5 Bd6 30. Nh4 a5 31. Ng6+ Ke8 32. Bd4 Ra6 33. Bf5 Rc6 34. Bd3 Kf7 35. Bxb5 Rc2 36. a4 Ne4 37. Bd3 Rc8 38. Nh4 Bc5 39. Ba1 Rb8 40. Bc2 g5 41. Nf3 Ke6 42. e3 g4 43. Ne5 Rc8 44. Bxe4 dxe4 45. Nc4 Kd5 46. Bf6 Rb8 47. Nxa5

1r6/8/5B2/N1bk3p/P3p1p1/1P2P1P1/5PKP/8 b - -


Only move.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-11 06:51
47...Bb6 - I wish I had the old PM that I sent you guys when I first found out that 45...Kd5 might have a better chance at winning. At the time Nat12 was able to use it to refute the other teams drawing ideas but they had planned to play 46.Bc3. I haven't been able to remember everything, I know that at the time I was positive I did not want the white knight to land on f4 which I think I can prevent but I still can't remember the winning plan. I keep tracing eval's into draws. Hopefully I haven't already missed something with 46...Rb8.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-11 08:27

> I wish I had the old PM that I sent you guys when I first found out that 45...Kd5 might have a better chance at winning.


Here it is:

"
From: Bobby C
To: Vytron
Date: 2009-09-10 05:23

I think I missed an easier win for us guys. I shouldn't have voted for 45...Rd8 so fast. I think 45...Kd5 would have been better now with hindsight.

45...Kd5

2r5/8/8/p1bk3p/P1N1p1p1/1P2P1P1/5PKP/B7 w - - 0 46


46.Bc3 Rb8 47.Nxa5 Bd6 48.h3 Bc7

49.b4 and 49.hxg4 both lose for white. And as far as I can tell everything else for white would lose as well. The principle here was that with our rook still on c8 we could make the move Kd5 and they can't take with Nxa5 because of Bxe3!! and the rook can still get down to c2 to check the king down to the 1st rank and then check again to get the bishop.

Now that our rook is on Rd8 if we move Kd5 they can take Nxa5 without fear of Bxe3. This does not mean we still can't force a win but I have not found it yet. Arrrg.... My brain hurts and I want to punch Rybka in the face. I have to quit of the night and see what they do. We really really really need to look really really hard at things from here on out. I can't believe I missed them taking a5 after Rd8 and then getting their knight back on c4 going toward our kingside pawns.
"

Certainly, Stockfish 1.7 thought 46.Bc3 was really busted, with really high evaluations for black.
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-11 08:40
Oh, and I think you've been playing the best moves, I didn't find anything for 46...Re8.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 c5 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d4 d5 8. cxd5 exd5 9. dxc5 Bxc5 10. Bg5 Be6 11. Rc1 Be7 12. Nd4 h6 13. Be3 Qd7 14. Nxe6 fxe6 15. Bh3 Rfe8 16. Nb5 Bd8 17. Qb3 Na5 18. Qd3 Nc4 19. Rxc4 dxc4 20. Qxc4 Qd5 21. Rc1 a6 22. Qxd5 exd5 23. Nd6 Re7 24. b3 b5 25. Kg2 h5 26. Bc8 Rc7 27. Rxc7 Bxc7 28. Be6+ Kf8 29. Nf5 Bd6 30. Nh4 a5 31. Ng6+ Ke8 32. Bd4 Ra6 33. Bf5 Rc6 34. Bd3 Kf7 35. Bxb5 Rc2 36. a4 Ne4 37. Bd3 Rc8 38. Nh4 Bc5 39. Ba1 Rb8 40. Bc2 g5 41. Nf3 Ke6 42. e3 g4 43. Ne5 Rc8 44. Bxe4 dxe4 45. Nc4 Kd5 46. Bf6 Rb8 47. Nxa5 Bb4 48. Nc4

1r6/8/5B2/3k3p/PbN1p1p1/1P2P1P1/5PKP/8 b - -
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-11 19:44
Hey, I played 47...Bb6 not Bb4. I think your reply will still be Nc4 but if not we can back up. If you still play Nc4 after Bb6 then my move is - 48...Bc7
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-12 05:55
Sorry for the mix up, yes I'll keep my move. I'm curious as to what your plan is, so far I've managed to keep the score sub -1.10 though I'm not use it means anything.

Conditional accepted:

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 c5 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d4 d5 8. cxd5 exd5 9. dxc5 Bxc5 10. Bg5 Be6 11. Rc1 Be7 12. Nd4 h6 13. Be3 Qd7 14. Nxe6 fxe6 15. Bh3 Rfe8 16. Nb5 Bd8 17. Qb3 Na5 18. Qd3 Nc4 19. Rxc4 dxc4 20. Qxc4 Qd5 21. Rc1 a6 22. Qxd5 exd5 23. Nd6 Re7 24. b3 b5 25. Kg2 h5 26. Bc8 Rc7 27. Rxc7 Bxc7 28. Be6+ Kf8 29. Nf5 Bd6 30. Nh4 a5 31. Ng6+ Ke8 32. Bd4 Ra6 33. Bf5 Rc6 34. Bd3 Kf7 35. Bxb5 Rc2 36. a4 Ne4 37. Bd3 Rc8 38. Nh4 Bc5 39. Ba1 Rb8 40. Bc2 g5 41. Nf3 Ke6 42. e3 g4 43. Ne5 Rc8 44. Bxe4 dxe4 45. Nc4 Kd5 46. Bf6 Rb8 47. Nxa5 Bb6 48. Nc4 Bc7 49. Na3

1r6/2b5/5B2/3k3p/P3p1p1/NP2P1P1/5PKP/8 b - -
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-13 01:34

>I'm curious as to what your plan is


I haven't got a plan. I am not sure I can win this game at all. I was hoping I would be able to stumble upon some idea but chess engines are useless and my OTB endgame skills seemed to have weakened over the winter.

49...Rxb3
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-13 13:38
I was very scared at the start of the game when I had 46.Bc3 as my main move at it kept going terribly downhill until even 46.h3?! looked better, I was afraid that the same would eventually happen to 46.Bf6 since the concepts were similar, but so far no dice, though white still needs to be very careful.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 c5 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d4 d5 8. cxd5 exd5 9. dxc5 Bxc5 10. Bg5 Be6 11. Rc1 Be7 12. Nd4 h6 13. Be3 Qd7 14. Nxe6 fxe6 15. Bh3 Rfe8 16. Nb5 Bd8 17. Qb3 Na5 18. Qd3 Nc4 19. Rxc4 dxc4 20. Qxc4 Qd5 21. Rc1 a6 22. Qxd5 exd5 23. Nd6 Re7 24. b3 b5 25. Kg2 h5 26. Bc8 Rc7 27. Rxc7 Bxc7 28. Be6+ Kf8 29. Nf5 Bd6 30. Nh4 a5 31. Ng6+ Ke8 32. Bd4 Ra6 33. Bf5 Rc6 34. Bd3 Kf7 35. Bxb5 Rc2 36. a4 Ne4 37. Bd3 Rc8 38. Nh4 Bc5 39. Ba1 Rb8 40. Bc2 g5 41. Nf3 Ke6 42. e3 g4 43. Ne5 Rc8 44. Bxe4 dxe4 45. Nc4 Kd5 46. Bf6 Rb8 47. Nxa5 Bb6 48. Nc4 Bc7 49. Na3 Rxb3 50. Nb5

8/2b5/5B2/1N1k3p/P3p1p1/1r2P1P1/5PKP/8 b - -
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-13 17:53
50...Ba5
Parent - - By BrandonSi (***) [us] Date 2010-04-14 16:27
Hmm. The general silicon-based consensus is that this is not looking good for white (worse off than the original position indicated).. Perhaps you can wait until Bobby is not looking, and sneak an extra pawn back on the board... :)
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-14 17:55
-1.40 positions that are draw keep me going.
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-15 01:31
This position is a good example of how terrible chess engines are in the endgame. Even with tablebases the best in the world can't see that this game is a dead draw.
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-14 18:12
Let's see how this one goes.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 c5 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d4 d5 8. cxd5 exd5 9. dxc5 Bxc5 10. Bg5 Be6 11. Rc1 Be7 12. Nd4 h6 13. Be3 Qd7 14. Nxe6 fxe6 15. Bh3 Rfe8 16. Nb5 Bd8 17. Qb3 Na5 18. Qd3 Nc4 19. Rxc4 dxc4 20. Qxc4 Qd5 21. Rc1 a6 22. Qxd5 exd5 23. Nd6 Re7 24. b3 b5 25. Kg2 h5 26. Bc8 Rc7 27. Rxc7 Bxc7 28. Be6+ Kf8 29. Nf5 Bd6 30. Nh4 a5 31. Ng6+ Ke8 32. Bd4 Ra6 33. Bf5 Rc6 34. Bd3 Kf7 35. Bxb5 Rc2 36. a4 Ne4 37. Bd3 Rc8 38. Nh4 Bc5 39. Ba1 Rb8 40. Bc2 g5 41. Nf3 Ke6 42. e3 g4 43. Ne5 Rc8 44. Bxe4 dxe4 45. Nc4 Kd5 46. Bf6 Rb8 47. Nxa5 Bb6 48. Nc4 Bc7 49. Na3 Rxb3 50. Nb5 Ba5 51. Bg7

8/6B1/8/bN1k3p/P3p1p1/1r2P1P1/5PKP/8 b - -
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-15 02:03
51...Rb4

I'm about tired of this position. I went into it thinking I would be able to find something but so far no luck. I just started a tournament on FICGS and with my upcoming game with ppiper I will have 7 games going on at the same time. I am already so busy I haven't had time to really give this position a real go. With the next few moves if something doesn't come up I'll be ready to quit and call it what I think it is(a draw).
- - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-15 09:30
Well, if it's a draw in the end, the bad thing would be that white can play this bad from the opening position and black can't do anything to take advantage and win, the good thing would be that we didn't miss the win back then :)

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. g3 c5 4. Bg2 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Nc3 Nc6 7. d4 d5 8. cxd5 exd5 9. dxc5 Bxc5 10. Bg5 Be6 11. Rc1 Be7 12. Nd4 h6 13. Be3 Qd7 14. Nxe6 fxe6 15. Bh3 Rfe8 16. Nb5 Bd8 17. Qb3 Na5 18. Qd3 Nc4 19. Rxc4 dxc4 20. Qxc4 Qd5 21. Rc1 a6 22. Qxd5 exd5 23. Nd6 Re7 24. b3 b5 25. Kg2 h5 26. Bc8 Rc7 27. Rxc7 Bxc7 28. Be6+ Kf8 29. Nf5 Bd6 30. Nh4 a5 31. Ng6+ Ke8 32. Bd4 Ra6 33. Bf5 Rc6 34. Bd3 Kf7 35. Bxb5 Rc2 36. a4 Ne4 37. Bd3 Rc8 38. Nh4 Bc5 39. Ba1 Rb8 40. Bc2 g5 41. Nf3 Ke6 42. e3 g4 43. Ne5 Rc8 44. Bxe4 dxe4 45. Nc4 Kd5 46. Bf6 Rb8 47. Nxa5 Bb6 48. Nc4 Bc7 49. Na3 Rxb3 50. Nb5 Ba5 51. Bg7 Rb4 52. Nc3+

8/6B1/8/b2k3p/Pr2p1p1/2N1P1P1/5PKP/8 b - -
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-15 20:13 Edited 2010-04-15 20:20
52...Ke6 Draw Offer

Black can't stop the knight from getting to f4. Rybka is hitting tablebases and not improving it's scores, Stockfish is very optimistic but let it get past a depth of 40 and it stops being so optimistic. I don't see any way for black to win. Maybe in the future I will go around challenging people to beat me with black :)
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-15 20:24
Draw Offer Accepted

Thanks for the game Bobby, I'm glad I didn't disappoint by losing easily or something :)

I still hope to play you again some day, perhaps in some crazy gambit ;)
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-15 20:36

> I still hope to play you again some day


Sure, I joined FICGS but they are crazy over there. You can play 6 or more games at the same time. The tournament I joined automatically put me in 6 games with time controls of 30days+1 day/move. I didn't expect to have to play 6 games at once so my plans are booked for a little while.
Parent - - By keoki010 (Bronze) [us] Date 2010-04-15 21:06
Don't worry! :lol:  I play from 20 to 30 all the time. The time controls are long enough if you only play 1 move a day you'll soon be having 90+ days on your clocks.  Have fun.  Maybe we'll play there.  You should do great. I've beaten a couple of the guys you are playing and I'm also playing one of them now in a tournament. :smile:
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-15 22:05
PM with the names of the ones you have beaten. With not knowing anything about your opponent there is no way to know if you should be playing for a draw with black or playing to win with black. No matter who I play I always go for the jugular with white :)
Parent - - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2010-04-15 22:46
so in the end we did not miss a winning line.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2010-04-15 23:06 Edited 2010-04-15 23:08
Potentially winning line. 45...Kd5 was better because at the time we think they would have played 46.Bc3 which was losing IMO. The move Vytron played was 46.Bf6 and it appears to be a better choice but I am not sure why. I didn't get a chance to really start to understand the position like I did before. Chess engines are hard to use because if you follow them they lead you to a draw. All the big engines evaluate this position so poorly because of the material imbalance(Rook vs Minor Piece+Pawn).
Parent - By NATIONAL12 (Gold) [gb] Date 2010-04-15 23:13
i agree it is difficult to get back to the mind set we had at the time.this applies to our opponents also.
- - By deka (****) [ee] Date 2010-04-15 21:14
A theoretical draw is one thing. But the other thing is whether a particular variation offers more chances for one side to impose his will upon the other. So, although the both moves lead to a draw, I reckon they are not completely equal in practical play otb?
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-04-16 03:40
Even at Corr time controls, 45...Kd5 was clearly the better choice, but lol I was asleep at the time we played it IIRC.
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Correspondence Chess / Vytron Vs. Bobby C (Nightmare challenge) 1/2-1/2

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