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Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / Do Playchess Books get tuned against me?
- - By dragon49 (****) [us] Date 2010-02-19 22:16
Do Playchess Books get tuned against me?

This sounds a little paranoid, but on playchess, I go through little streaks.

I make and load a new book and have great results.  Then, I start getting killed.  Then, I tune the old book, or make a new one.  Then my results get better again.  Then, I start ketting killed again.

I am not suggesting a conspiracy against me, but is this how things normally progress?
Parent - - By Highendman (****) Date 2010-02-19 23:12
Exactly.

Some work hard on their theory. They analyse every draw or god forbid a loss. And fix these lines.
So next time you play the same line vs. that opponent - your book no longer works...

And like in any sport, some spend more time, focus, talent into this, and do this more frequently too than others.

It take patience, time and most likely also a certain degree of Asperger syndrome to analyse *every* draw, loss and _win_ and improve them.

I know I do that ;)
Parent - - By dragon49 (****) [us] Date 2010-02-19 23:38
Intersting.

I looked you up in my playchess database.

Your are +1 against me!

We drew, I won, we drew, then you won 2.

I've been known to "obsess" a little myself.  I must look at our games to prepare for our future battles.

In any event, it appears that the playchess community as a whole is adding to chess knowledge and improving chess every day.

Later
Parent - - By Sesse (****) [ch] Date 2010-02-20 01:23
The chess knowledge added is sort of marginal, though, given the pretty narrow range of openings that are typically played. See previous debates for an extensive treatment of the subject =)

/* Steinar */
Parent - - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-02-20 15:06
Which isn't bad, since chess is extremely huge they wouldn't achieve anything if the ecos were spared fairly. This way imagine that they announce that they've solved the sicilian ;)
Parent - - By Sesse (****) [ch] Date 2010-02-21 02:02
Well... is the pawn poisoned or not? =)

/* Steinar */
Parent - By Uly (Gold) [mx] Date 2010-02-21 02:30
Draw with perfect play.
Parent - By Bouddha (****) [ch] Date 2010-02-19 23:49
Me 2 :-D
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2010-02-21 02:25
There is definitely a conspiracy against you, dragon.  A paranoid person may have real enemies, and I am sure you do.  The engine room is a snake-pit of conspiracy, treachery and subversion.  Your best bet is to avoid presenting a fixed target and keep your book as current as everyone else's.
Parent - By dragon49 (****) [us] Date 2010-02-21 04:31
I am paranoid, and everybody is out to get me!?
Parent - By M ANSARI (*****) [gb] Date 2010-02-21 06:31
A new book will quickly have its best lines gleaned and within days it will be on most other Playchess books.  A good line you worked days on will last for a few wins but not more than that.  It is amazing how similar most books on Playchess are.  A good way to get good results is to play Rybka against non Rybka engines at home, preferably an engine with very much different evaluation.  Those Rybka losses are almost guaranteed good results in the engine room since most will only use Rybka as an engine.
- - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2010-02-20 22:09
IMHO nowadays it is easier to achieve a victory with 1.b4, for instance, than with 1.e4 c5.

For sure other moves but 1.e4 are weaker for computer chess but they are also much less known. Besides this fact, you can actually get very accurate analysis for Sicilian lines just observing certain games, which does not happen in openings that nobody plays
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2010-02-21 02:21
I agree.  There are over 250x more 1.e4 games in the database universe than 1.b4.  Fewer games in people's databases means vulnerabilities and less time in book.  Both mean more decisive games.  Long lines in theory almost always mean higher draw-rates.

However, in order for 1.b4 to really work well you need to accompany it with superior hardware.  Then you can accept an evaluation disadvantage out of book and still grind down your weaker opponent.
- - By mad max (***) [us] Date 2010-02-21 04:07
once u start getting good you'll attract th attention of the macro bots.The owners of these bots are nothing more than cheating non ethical predators. keep your book up to date on a daily basis, and trust no one.
Parent - By dragon49 (****) [us] Date 2010-02-21 04:30
What is a Macro Bot?
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2010-02-21 06:01
I've never understood this argument.  If they developed and own the software, if the nicks are paid for, if kibitzing is legal, then how are they cheating, unethical and predatory?  Life isn't fair.  Some people have more money than others and can afford top hardware.  Are we going to confiscate their surplus cash?  Some people spend more time working on the hobby in a variety of productive ways.  Should they be penalized somehow?  Are the games played on a public server copyrighted? 

By the way, don't accuse me of anything.  I hardly ever visit the engine room and when I do my record is not impressive.
Parent - - By Frayer (**) [us] Date 2010-02-21 09:45
Nelson:

Pardon me; PlayChess has made it quit clear that it is not a public chess server. It has declared itself to be a private for profit business enterprise. The games played on this private server are most certainly the property of ChessBase. While allowing some players to make these games available to the public, its policy is much less clear on using macros to autonomously run on paid accounts. If ChessBase or its agents, would like to correct my understanding, now is your opportunity to do so.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2010-02-21 14:43
My impression, based on what I have observed over the past few years, is that Chessbase is laissez faire in this matter, so long as the kibitzers do not adopt "in your face" collecting methods.  Last year sometime they slapped a 500-game limit on how many games can be kibitzed per nick per server-day.  So what naturally happened is that consortiums of game collectors developed with lots of nicks (I know of two, but I am sure there are more).  I don't think there is anything wrong with this, and as long as you weren't obnoxious about it, I think you could do the same.  There's nothing stopping you.  Of course, it gets silly when there are nearly as many people kibitzing as playing.

I am sure Eros, Zacks, Suj or any of the big collectors out there will tell you that while having a deep database is useful, it isn't a panacea.  By themselves games do not add as much ELO as you might think all other things being equal.  I've been collecting like mad for the past six years (today is the sixth anniversary since I first logged into Playchess) and I wonder if it was all worth it given the state of the hobby today.  I've concluded that even if you had 100 million games in book it would represent a surprisingly small advantage over some of the books that are out there today with far less than a million games.  "Book wins" are largely a thing of the past, something you can pull off against a rookie maybe, but rarely against a veteran player unless you have done some very serious analysis.  As for a book's usefulness in Freestyle, that's undeniable, unless you're playing Shahar and he decides to neutralize the book in four moves with some offbeat variation.

My conclusion is that there ought to be an abatement of paranoia and feelings of persecution.  If you want a bigger database then quit complaining and go get the games.  Warning: you cannot imagine ahead of time how time-consuming collecting, filtering and managing this whole process can be.  It's a serious lifestyle choice with zero fun factor.  Few are suited for it.
Parent - By Fulcrum2000 (****) [nl] Date 2010-02-21 15:49
Entertaining read and of course very true. :-)
Parent - - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2010-02-22 13:55

> The games played on this private server are most certainly the property of ChessBase


Sorry, I am not agree with this statement.

Games are property of their authors, Player 1 and Player 2, regardless where they were played.
Parent - - By Frayer (**) [us] Date 2010-02-22 20:39
Ppipper:

Let us say, for the sake of discussion, the games we play on the PlayChess server belong to the two players that played them. Then all one would be required to do if they did not wish others to use their games or make them public is to put in their account profile “All Games Played With This Account are Copyrighted © 2010 by the player” I am sure CB would not wish to facilitate theft of intellectual property and would immediately disable the aspect of their GUI that automatically captures games that are kibitzed. Watching a game being played and recording it are two different things.

Now, I am playing the devil's advocate here. Of course, CB retains the legal rights to all games played on it server. However if you wrote them asking about this point of law, you would not get an answer. If you continued to press the question using server chat or mail, an unpaid agent of CB would communicate with you, an enforcer, giving you the option of stopping your inquiry or being banned.

As Nelson alluded to earlier, the engine room is much like Mos Eisley space port on Tatooine. “A more wretched hive of scum and villainy you will not find in the chess universe.”
Parent - By ppipper (*****) [es] Date 2010-02-22 22:12

> Then all one would be required to do if they did not wish others to use their games or make them public is to put in their account profile “All Games Played With This Account are Copyrighted © 2010 by the player”


It would not be enough. If you are playing your games in a club, you must follow that club's rules. In this case, the club is PCC server, and according to those rules, anyone can kibitz your games as you can kibitz other's. I guess there must be other internet servers around, where you can play without being kb'zed.
Parent - - By Mark Mason (***) [gb] Date 2010-02-21 09:46
Dragon 49,

Bots have a nick but are actually programs set to automatically kibbitz all games from certain players or certain elo ranges. They can kibbitz many games at the same time.  The owner of the autokibbitzer bot can leave it running for hours unattended and all the kibbitzed games will be saved on their PC for use in book tuning. If ever you feel you are being "followed" by a particular nick check and you may find that it is simultaneously kibbitzing dozens of games - that is an autokibbitzer.

Some people feel that this is in some way unethical but as far as I know it is not illegal to do this and Playchess.com have not banned the practice. Personally I agree with Nelson here. When we play in the engine room others are free to kibbitz the game. If it is OK to kibbitz a game then why is it wrong to kibbitz multiple games - what is the difference in principle ?  A game played on a public server by default becomes a publicly accessible game and so do all the moves made in that game - you cannot "own" a chess game. If Magnus Carlsen  plays a game in a top tournament and produces a brilliant novelty in a particular opening line then from that point onwards that new line is public property and others are free to use it. There is no grounds on which Carlsen could object and claim others should not use "his" move. Indeed this is how opening theory develops over the years.  So it is in engine chess - if somebody kibbitzes a game they are entitled to use that game and any lines in it to tune their opening book.

This is an old topic that has been debated many times on here. I would be interested to hear any other views.

Mark
Parent - - By Frayer (**) [us] Date 2010-02-21 10:58
Mark:

If ChessBase has no objections, to allowing everyone to use macro auto kibitzing programs, it would be my pleasure to post a how-to guide here on this forum. This practice is as you say, ethical, so long as all are permitted to do it. It does not require extra hardware or advanced computer knowledge. Strange is it not, that it is so hard to get those that know how to do it, to talk about it. Maybe, it gives a few players that are in the know an advantage that they do not wish to relinquish. Maybe if too many players did it, it would be stopped.
Parent - By BrandonSi (***) [us] Date 2010-02-21 13:47
I think that's a great idea Kevin. Why not post it on your site? Might as well get some traffic for your effort.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2010-02-22 00:17
I think it would be great thing if you would release a good macro auto kibitzing program to the general public. If enough people start using these, maybe the server will become unstable and Chessbase will further limit the practice.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) [us] Date 2010-02-23 03:41
The question is do you really want to collect games or do you want to create such a public and technical nuisance that nobody can collect them.  It would be a fun poll question. 

In my view, making it so nobody can collect them means 100% loss of useful knowledge, a complete and total waste. 

It seems like it would be very easy for someone like Kevin to establish a group of people who collected and shared games in some efficient and unobtrusive way.  If he then wanted to publish the games like chessgladiators then that would be easy too, and no harm done.  Or if he wanted to be secretive more power to him.

On the other hand if the goal is to wreak vengeance then that's par for the course in computer chess.  If you can't beat them or even match them then denounce them and piss on them, the bastards.  I suspect that is the general attitude.
Parent - By Frayer (**) [us] Date 2010-02-23 07:54
Yes, denunciations and urine for all the bastards.
Parent - - By mad max (***) [us] Date 2010-02-22 22:12
I agree 1000%..you hit the nail on the head...Mr Frayer.
Parent - By Zat (*) Date 2010-02-24 02:22
I agree, PLEASE post a howto on this.  That way when they shut down this sort of thing, these bottom feeding lowlifes will actually have to right click a game and select
download.  At least that will slow them down a bit.
Downloading my games I have no problem with , but auto collecting EVERY high level game all the time is overkill.
This disease has spread to ICC as well, even though this policy was outlawed on ICC in the past and accounts kicked for it.   But now some account "TheGodsRus" nonstop copies
everyones games and the admins seem ignorant of it.
Up Topic The Rybka Lounge / Computer Chess / Do Playchess Books get tuned against me?

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