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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / How Valuable is Opening Theory?
- - By tasdourian (**) [us] Date 2007-08-18 05:48
I was quite surprised to read Larry's comment a few weeks ago that having Rybka play with a 3 move book only weakened Rybka by 50-100 ELO points.  I was under the impression from reading various books and articles that opening preparation had become an overwhelmingly important part of the GM game because if you lacked comprehensive and deep preparation you could easily lose in the opening. Isn't such prerparation what Kasparov was famous for, along with his tactical wizardy? Furthermore, although players up to Expert level are given the advice to learn the reasons behind the openings and not just to memorize variations, that is because although they may win a bunch of games using opening "traps", they won't really improve their game this way.  Are almost all such opening "traps" detectable by Rybka just through calculation?  I thought some of them involved more than just simple tactics--like putting your opponent in a not so obviously positionally inferior position, that nevertheless is quite inferior, and thus allows you to win over time.

But to get back to the central point-- all of the last 60 years of opening theory is possibly only worth 50 ELO points to a computer as strong as Rybka?  Please tell me I'm wrong here.
Parent - - By Linus (***) [at] Date 2007-08-18 06:02
I see an experiment coming up here. ;) Take two identical Rybka engines and have them play against each other, one with and one without book with alternating colors. Let them play at least 100 games and see what happens.

I will post the result here in a couple of days :)
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) [ch] Date 2007-08-18 06:28
By the way, I have recently tuned my private home book by using Rybka 2.3.2a vs Rybka 2.3.2 with DeepFritz 10 book and Rybka II book.

My private book is now scoring around +50 ELO against these 2 books based on around 2000 games at 3min blitz time control on my QX6700.

regards
Parent - - By Linus (***) [at] Date 2007-08-18 07:39
Interesting. Your book must be really good then. The RybkaII book is not a bad one.

The problem with the experiment I am doing (Rybka with book vs Rybka without book) is also time. Since Rybka without book has to calculate from the first move, it has less time later in the game. I thought about compensating for that with a small time bonus, but decided against it for two reasons:

a) Rybka without book will probably very soon deviate from known book lines and throw the other Rybka out of book quickly. I don't think I will see many games with 20 book moves on one side.

b) Rybka generally has a very careful time management and rarely uses all her time anyway.

I believe that with Rybka the time disadvantage should have almost no impact on the outcome of the experiment. This would probably be different with other engines.
Parent - By BigBen (****) Date 2007-08-18 11:41
Hi,
   The time control will be very important, if it is Blitz then a slaughter will take place if one of the Rybka's is useing a top book from one of top engines in the playchess engine room. The example below shows an opening that had been played many times before but with some work (a lot) I sprang or rather had put in the book the move 14.Rxh6! which I knew would win at Blitz until the opponents figure it out. There are many ways for black to go wrong and not enough time for black at blitz to sort it out, so the engine followed my main line, only rrealising it was totally lost at around move 20 or so ... I have also been on the recieving end of these kind of book losses lol even with my Quad at 4+Ghz it also would have lost the same way

The Wizard,Rybka 2.3.2a mp (2818) - Jannof8,Rybka 2.3.2a mp (2805) [B30]
Rated game, 3m + 0s Engine Room, 15.08.2007

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Bc4 Be7 5.d3 Nc6 6.0-0 Nf6 7.Ng5 0-0 8.f4 Bg4 9.Qe1 h6 10.Nf3 Bxf3 11.Rxf3 Nd4 12.Rh3 Nxc2 13.Qg3 Nxa1 14.Rxh6!! b5 15.Rh3 Nxe4 16.Qg6 Bh4 17.dxe4 exf4 18.Bxf4 bxc4 19.Qh5 g6 20.Qh6 g5 21.Nd5 f6 22.Qg6+ Kh8 23.Bg3 Qe8 24.Qh6+ Kg8 25.Bxh4 Qf7 26.Rg3 Qg7 27.Qh5 Rae8 28.Bxg5 fxg5 29.Rxg5 Re6 30.Rxg7+ Kxg7 31.Qg4+ Rg6 32.Qd1 Re6 33.Qxa1 1-0
Parent - By Gr00vy (**) [us] Date 2007-08-18 16:18
This is substantially different than the 3 move book that was used in the Ehlvast tourney.  The three moves were quite specific, especially as black and avoided alot of truly complicated lines.   I posit that this would be substantially different than "no" book.

I wonder if they will publish the 3 move book?
Parent - By Linus (***) [at] Date 2007-08-18 18:32
OK, experiment complete at 5 mins time controls. After 100 games Rybka 2.3.2a 64-bit 2CPU with book vs Rybka without book the result is:

Rybka with book wins 25 games
Rybka without book wins 5 games
70 games ended in a draw

This is a 60% - 40% win for Rybka with book, or approximately 70 ELO. This is consistent with Larry's estimated 50 ELO, because he was not recommending to totally turn off book use, but to have a mini book to steer into safe openings.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-08-18 15:42
     I think that what I have demonstrated, in both the Ehlvest match and in my various private engine-engine tests, is that the disadvantage of minimal opening knowledge can be kept to close to 50 Elo points by choosing openings that are slightly inferior but relatively safe. Naturally if you try to play a poison pawn Najdorf or any other razor-sharp opening, the value of theory is more than fifty points. But there are many openings and defenses that can be played with little knowledge that are only slightly inferior. As White, you can easily get an equal game with openings like the Colle or London system that require little knowledge, and since White's advantage is less than fifty Elo this means that the difference between complete knowledge of theory and just minimal knowledge is worth less than fifty Elo for White. As Black, the difference is greater, but not much greater. By choosing something a bit passive like the Philidor or Steinitz defense (to the Spanish), your disadvantage will surely not be more than a hundred Elo, and if this is compared to the normal forty or so for White it means that Black might lose sixty Elo playing this way, which requires only minimal knowledge.
     Openings are overwhelmingly important in GM play because GMs cannot concede fifty Elo points, and if they try to play sharp openings they must know every detail.
Parent - - By tasdourian (**) [us] Date 2007-08-18 16:53
Thanks, Larry.  That clarifies things about the value of opening books and GMs a lot.

Here's another question I was wondering about-- If you can "tune" Rybka to avoid draws a la the upcoming Benjamin match, can you "tune" it to do other things like, for example, become a ferocious, speculative attacker, so that if it were playing someone under, say, 2300, it would overwhelm them with its Tal-Kasparov-like attacks (and of course, play objectively weaker, but an under 2300 player would only rarely be able to expose this)?  It would be like a "contempt" factor, except it would be slanted towards tactical ability.  Seriously, it would be really interesting if a Rybka 3.0 had such options as "Avoid Draws" or "Attack like Tal"-- even though its objective strength would be weaker, it would be amazing and fun to play against.  A sophisticated approach to handicapping would be very enjoyable as well.  Have you and Vas thought about including these kind of options in Rybka 3.0?
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-08-18 19:16
Yes, such an idea is something we could do. We haven't discussed it, as we have more than enough things to do for version 3.0, but it sounds feasible to me for some future version.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-08-18 17:38
In a similar idea with tasdourian, I wonder if it would be possible to "mold" an improved Winfinder version with Rybka in Rybka 3 such that the engine parameters box could have a "Winfinder mode" box that could be unchecked by default.  Checking it could have Rybka basically use both modes at the same time, thus slowing down normal Rybka by 50%, but using Winfinder mode, which normally finds tactical ideas 10-100x as fast as Rybka still finding them 5x-50x as fast.  Thus, if someone is in an engine game that enters lines such as a Poisoned Pawn Najdorf or some variations of the King's Indian or Benoni and such, someone could right-click and change parameters during the game; this could also be handy in games against humans.  Would such a thing be possible, and if so, would it be practical?
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-08-18 19:24
It sounds like something that could be done, but whether it would actually be helpful is doubtful. Sure, winfinder will find a winning tactic more quickly, but in a real game no one puts up a sign that says "White to play and win". You would often be left with two move choices and no easy way to determine which move is actually better. True, sometimes the score difference would be large enough to make it obvious that winfinder has found a superior move, but whether this would happen often enough to justify the weakening of every move due to using only half the resources for the normal Rybka is doubtful. Ideally we will just improve Rybka's search so that tactics will be seen more quickly at minimal cost.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) [il] Date 2007-08-18 18:13
The main question is if GM's cannot learn to improve their play in the middle game by 50 elo instead of spending time on learning opening theory.

If they can then maybe their best strategy is not to learn opening theory and get more time to learn playing the middle game.

Uri
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-08-18 18:31
If you get outplayed in the opening, you may not get a playable middle game...
Parent - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-08-18 19:14
You put the question very well. My opinion is that most GMs cannot improve their middlegame play by another 50 Elo, so I think they are not wrong to concentrate on the openings. There may be some exceptions.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / How Valuable is Opening Theory?

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