Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Susan Polgar asks for readers' opinions on chess engines.
Susan Polgar has made a recent posting titled: "Rybka, Junior, Fritz and others"
http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/2007/06/rybka-junior-fritz-and-others.html
She writes:
"For those of you who use or have used a number of these programs, could you share with all the readers about the differences between them? What do you perceive as the strengths and weaknesses of each program? Which one do you use the most and which one do you like best?"
I wanted to notify the readers of this forum about this. It's not that I want to provoke a lot of Rybka propaganda at Susan's site -- all opinions and preferences are interesting. It's more that I hope that such discussions can get some input from people who are experienced with the whole "chess engine culture".
As an aside, somebody noticed that the Rybka-Shredder game had move spectators at Playchess than any of the many human games going on at the same time, including a Karpov game. I personally believe there is still quite some potential for increasing interest in engine-related chess. Some years ago, it was just like "plug in the latest version of Fritz and don't think more about it, you just need it for tactics anyway", but now there are many strong engines and their influence on chess is ever-increasing.
Generally, I just hope that the general level of knowledge in the chess world about engines and their use will be increased. It would be the first step to make engine chess (and Freestyle chess) a commonly recognized sub-sport in the chess world.
http://susanpolgar.blogspot.com/2007/06/rybka-junior-fritz-and-others.html
She writes:
"For those of you who use or have used a number of these programs, could you share with all the readers about the differences between them? What do you perceive as the strengths and weaknesses of each program? Which one do you use the most and which one do you like best?"
I wanted to notify the readers of this forum about this. It's not that I want to provoke a lot of Rybka propaganda at Susan's site -- all opinions and preferences are interesting. It's more that I hope that such discussions can get some input from people who are experienced with the whole "chess engine culture".
As an aside, somebody noticed that the Rybka-Shredder game had move spectators at Playchess than any of the many human games going on at the same time, including a Karpov game. I personally believe there is still quite some potential for increasing interest in engine-related chess. Some years ago, it was just like "plug in the latest version of Fritz and don't think more about it, you just need it for tactics anyway", but now there are many strong engines and their influence on chess is ever-increasing.
Generally, I just hope that the general level of knowledge in the chess world about engines and their use will be increased. It would be the first step to make engine chess (and Freestyle chess) a commonly recognized sub-sport in the chess world.
I already put a comment ont Susan's blog. It is not yet validated...
Interesting discussion ..
Vas
Vas
Vas,
Come on!
Come on!
Siderius and all,
I believe that a thing that our world both a specialized magazine miss in the sector. It would be beautiful it went out a monthly publication, that lines the whole material regarding the world CHESSENGINE.
On internet there are many good person sites, but they are too many and shed and located.
We would need a magazine to international diffusion. Sent to all the chess circles and to the impassioned ones.
And I also believe that the FIDE ones should give more importance to the game with the PC.
But this is a thing on which we don't probably have influence.
Hi
I believe that a thing that our world both a specialized magazine miss in the sector. It would be beautiful it went out a monthly publication, that lines the whole material regarding the world CHESSENGINE.
On internet there are many good person sites, but they are too many and shed and located.
We would need a magazine to international diffusion. Sent to all the chess circles and to the impassioned ones.
And I also believe that the FIDE ones should give more importance to the game with the PC.
But this is a thing on which we don't probably have influence.
Hi
I believe that there used to be something like this (possibly still is?) associated with the SSDF rating list.
Isn't that something! And, when you go to Ms. Polgar's web site there in front of you is what? Rybka! Who said Rybka isn't known out side of a few "chess engine freaks" that idea is fast becoming an anachronism. Computer Chess is advancing at a rapid pace-I don't think it will be long before it is along side of human chess.
Wait until that Rybka GUI is out! Oh! MY! Oh! MY!
All you need is the gift of perception and a look into the future and the rest is history! It translates into an educational tool-thats what is being proposed here-what a gift! This is really important!!!
You owe Alkelele big time for this one. I don't care what he says-you owe him big time!!!
sidserious
Wait until that Rybka GUI is out! Oh! MY! Oh! MY!
All you need is the gift of perception and a look into the future and the rest is history! It translates into an educational tool-thats what is being proposed here-what a gift! This is really important!!!
You owe Alkelele big time for this one. I don't care what he says-you owe him big time!!!
sidserious
Excuse me,
If you let this opportunity pass with out getting fired up and mobilizing this forum into some kind of poll or other and submitting it to Ms.Polgar in helping her come to a better understanding how Rybka enhances chess understanding you have missed a valuable opportunity. I would hope Alkelele could formulate that poll since he has a great understanding or of course Vas. But please,please,please,please, do it-come on guys- Please.
Sincerely,
Robert
If you let this opportunity pass with out getting fired up and mobilizing this forum into some kind of poll or other and submitting it to Ms.Polgar in helping her come to a better understanding how Rybka enhances chess understanding you have missed a valuable opportunity. I would hope Alkelele could formulate that poll since he has a great understanding or of course Vas. But please,please,please,please, do it-come on guys- Please.
Sincerely,
Robert
Vas,
Ms. Polgar, is giving you a gift-please take it -networking never hurts-I have to take a shower-
Ms. Polgar, is giving you a gift-please take it -networking never hurts-I have to take a shower-
You could send a link to a topic thread on the difference of each and the merities of Rybka - that is not a bad idea! It's not a nutty idea!!!
Yes but this is the 3th answer to yourself, this is a bit nutty to talk to yourself like this :) . Just kidding ;) .
Hi genorb,
Well, no! Obviously not, since no one is bothering to respond. It is being perceived as inappropriate to poll the differences on a Rybka forum. I just don't think it is if it is don't honestly and openly-and the link is used as a post on Polgar's blog.
But, enough!
Well, no! Obviously not, since no one is bothering to respond. It is being perceived as inappropriate to poll the differences on a Rybka forum. I just don't think it is if it is don't honestly and openly-and the link is used as a post on Polgar's blog.
But, enough!
It was just a stupid joke ;)
Hi genorb,
No! What you did was the appropriate thing. I cannot make any comments because I don't own either Junior or Fritz only Rybka.
Best Wishes,
Robert
No! What you did was the appropriate thing. I cannot make any comments because I don't own either Junior or Fritz only Rybka.
Best Wishes,
Robert
Here is what I posted on Susan's blog:
Rybka is *much* stronger that all the other softwares (I don't include Hydra in this).
It's quite sad that, on Chessbase, they even don't speak of the match Rybba - Elvest or Rybka - Benjamen.
Probably (?) because they only like their products (Fritz,...). It's not a good information they give about this.
And also...for what I know, there was no answer from FIDE to the open letter (for a match Rybka - Junior)
Rybka is *much* stronger that all the other softwares (I don't include Hydra in this).
It's quite sad that, on Chessbase, they even don't speak of the match Rybba - Elvest or Rybka - Benjamen.
Probably (?) because they only like their products (Fritz,...). It's not a good information they give about this.
And also...for what I know, there was no answer from FIDE to the open letter (for a match Rybka - Junior)
Here is what I posted on Susan's blog:
Rybka is *much* stronger that all the other softwares (I don't include Hydra in this).
agreed compared to any released software
It's quite sad that, on Chessbase, they even don't speak of the match Rybba - Elvest or Rybka - Benjamen.
Probably (?) because they only like their products (Fritz,...). It's not a good information they give about this.
Why should they? They are a company trying to make a profit.
And also...for what I know, there was no answer from FIDE to the open letter (for a match Rybka - Junior)
This is not true http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=1866
Rybka is *much* stronger that all the other softwares (I don't include Hydra in this).
agreed compared to any released software
It's quite sad that, on Chessbase, they even don't speak of the match Rybba - Elvest or Rybka - Benjamen.
Probably (?) because they only like their products (Fritz,...). It's not a good information they give about this.
Why should they? They are a company trying to make a profit.
And also...for what I know, there was no answer from FIDE to the open letter (for a match Rybka - Junior)
This is not true http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?tid=1866
Okay, I posted my two cents-as usually-its not polite!
A great a shame occurs when a company, such as ChessBase is seen eclipsing a far more talented chess program, such as Rybka, in favor of promoting their own, lesser programs, by holding a self-serving “World Chess Match” that is nothing less than a charade and a promotional gimmick- reflects the sad image of small time racketeering.
sidserious
A great a shame occurs when a company, such as ChessBase is seen eclipsing a far more talented chess program, such as Rybka, in favor of promoting their own, lesser programs, by holding a self-serving “World Chess Match” that is nothing less than a charade and a promotional gimmick- reflects the sad image of small time racketeering.
sidserious
Mind if I call you sid, because you can't be serious :-)
/Sarcasm on/
Shame on Chessbase for promoting their own products.
/Sarcasm off/
Rybka is the strongest engine, but in my opinion, it is just plain silly to blame Chessbase for running a business. What company goes out of their way to hi-light the strength of their competition?
/Sarcasm on/
Shame on Chessbase for promoting their own products.
/Sarcasm off/
Rybka is the strongest engine, but in my opinion, it is just plain silly to blame Chessbase for running a business. What company goes out of their way to hi-light the strength of their competition?
Of course I am serious.
Is it silly to expect nothing less than honest and integrity to be the hall mark in the promotion of a product that is being touted first in its class and then fix it so that there is no "real" competition against that product?
You'd have to be pretty damned jaded to buy into that mentality-it seems you have!
Sidserious
Is it silly to expect nothing less than honest and integrity to be the hall mark in the promotion of a product that is being touted first in its class and then fix it so that there is no "real" competition against that product?
You'd have to be pretty damned jaded to buy into that mentality-it seems you have!
Sidserious
You wrote "Rybka is the strongest engine, but in my opinion, it is just plain silly to blame Chessbase for running a business. What company goes out of their way to hi-light the strength of their competition?"
You are wrong here! Chess Base is also being run as a "news paper", that reports about chess events around the world.
When BBC recently were involved in a number of scandals, BBC stil reported about these embarising cases in a way that were above board. A news paper have to be prepared to report unpleasent news even when the news paper might not exactly "like" the news.
Chess Base have shown that they do NOT anymore see themself foremost as a serious chess news agent (a position I think they should try to maintain), but more as a platform for selling their products. I am not a buisness man so I am not sure which strategy is most likely to succede.
Personally, I think I would choose the moral line (which I think will pay off best in the long run) of viewing Chess Base as the world leading provider of "chess news" as well as leading provider of teaching material (books, CDs, Chess Programs) etc.
I think Chess Base should see themselves a bit like a BBC of the chess world and try to make greater efford to be seen balanced in their news reporting.
You are wrong here! Chess Base is also being run as a "news paper", that reports about chess events around the world.
When BBC recently were involved in a number of scandals, BBC stil reported about these embarising cases in a way that were above board. A news paper have to be prepared to report unpleasent news even when the news paper might not exactly "like" the news.
Chess Base have shown that they do NOT anymore see themself foremost as a serious chess news agent (a position I think they should try to maintain), but more as a platform for selling their products. I am not a buisness man so I am not sure which strategy is most likely to succede.
Personally, I think I would choose the moral line (which I think will pay off best in the long run) of viewing Chess Base as the world leading provider of "chess news" as well as leading provider of teaching material (books, CDs, Chess Programs) etc.
I think Chess Base should see themselves a bit like a BBC of the chess world and try to make greater efford to be seen balanced in their news reporting.
BBC... Balanced... You gotta be kidding :-)
it's a hell of a lot better in that then Fox...
Hi Fulcrum2000,
One has to look at each individually! When you start comparing one against the other then all discussion stops. Fox's is bullshit as are must of the other commercial new " shows. "
I don't bother with cable so I rely on Frontline-BBC-PBS-RADIO and the net.
Robert
One has to look at each individually! When you start comparing one against the other then all discussion stops. Fox's is bullshit as are must of the other commercial new " shows. "
I don't bother with cable so I rely on Frontline-BBC-PBS-RADIO and the net.
Robert
Hi Alkelele,
Well, if the only new programing you get is commercial to compare to BBC - then BBC looks pretty balanced. Here, I only get PBS and on PBS is BBC news. I refuse to turn on the local CBS or NBC stations. You get these 8 second segments of the news.
Robert
Well, if the only new programing you get is commercial to compare to BBC - then BBC looks pretty balanced. Here, I only get PBS and on PBS is BBC news. I refuse to turn on the local CBS or NBC stations. You get these 8 second segments of the news.
Robert
And in agreement to that it is a big difference between ignoring some news and being totally misleading (almost if lying by deception).
By being chess news then I not only feel they should report anything important in the chess world but
that they should never be misleading. For many will see through them and lose respect.
There are plenty of ways they can promote their products without being misleading or ignoring news.
They can give the strengths of each of their programs like by giving diagrams showing how accurately a program solves certain problems
or by showing the beneficial features that no other program has. That is why I decided to purchase Junior 10 (dynamic style of play) and Fritz 10 (learning arrows) despite also having rybka.
By being chess news then I not only feel they should report anything important in the chess world but
that they should never be misleading. For many will see through them and lose respect.
There are plenty of ways they can promote their products without being misleading or ignoring news.
They can give the strengths of each of their programs like by giving diagrams showing how accurately a program solves certain problems
or by showing the beneficial features that no other program has. That is why I decided to purchase Junior 10 (dynamic style of play) and Fritz 10 (learning arrows) despite also having rybka.
I'm afraid your the one who's wrong Soren (I think I spelled that right). In the news, whether it be CBS, FOX, NBC, or whatever, It is all about ratings. The stations only report what they feel will give the best ratings to them and nothing more. Coming from a higher than Top Secret background in the military and as a civilian, I can attest that news stations do not report the whole truth in some cases. They tend to with-hold information. It has always been and always will be about the ratings. As far as Chessbase goes, they are still a business that wants to sell their products. To say, they should report the information anyway, even if it casts them in a bad light is just silly.
I have even heard stations out right lie when reporting on a certain war, but that's as far as I'll go on that one.
I have even heard stations out right lie when reporting on a certain war, but that's as far as I'll go on that one.
Kstevens, this is of course somewhat depressing but it does not surprise me that CBS,FOX, NBC all are about ratings and that such stations would never report information that cast them in a bad light. As a consumer I always like to visit the US, but I must admit that I find the media (television) quite depressing and superficial. Even the so called state channels has a very "American" ideology.
Come to think of it, I think the difference in Europe is that most television stations are much more controlled (by governmental bodies, watch dogs etc). So maybe Fide should create an incentive to encourage good practice in chess news reporting? From the Junior-Fritz match we saw recently it appears that Fide is also just run as a business with no major obligations to its millions of chess members.
Occasionally I watch the English version of Al Jazeera (that obviously has it own hidden agenda) as well as CNN and BBC. When at home I watch Scandinavian news that has other biases although the medias in general are quite regulated. I suppose we just have to resign to the fact that also in Chess reporting various news providers (Chessbase, OKChess etc) have they own biases that (I hate to say) is governed by profit.
PS. After having read the book "eat the rich":A Treatise on Economics (by O'Rourke, P. J.), I was even more persuaded that what seems to be crucial building blocks for creating a good wealthy well-functioning society is "Democracy (proportional representation is best in my view), an independent press as well as an independent legal system (that protect minorities and human rights)". On a global scale the world would be more democratic if we could all vote for the American president, since he seems to kind of rule the world anyway ;-)
Come to think of it, I think the difference in Europe is that most television stations are much more controlled (by governmental bodies, watch dogs etc). So maybe Fide should create an incentive to encourage good practice in chess news reporting? From the Junior-Fritz match we saw recently it appears that Fide is also just run as a business with no major obligations to its millions of chess members.
Occasionally I watch the English version of Al Jazeera (that obviously has it own hidden agenda) as well as CNN and BBC. When at home I watch Scandinavian news that has other biases although the medias in general are quite regulated. I suppose we just have to resign to the fact that also in Chess reporting various news providers (Chessbase, OKChess etc) have they own biases that (I hate to say) is governed by profit.
PS. After having read the book "eat the rich":A Treatise on Economics (by O'Rourke, P. J.), I was even more persuaded that what seems to be crucial building blocks for creating a good wealthy well-functioning society is "Democracy (proportional representation is best in my view), an independent press as well as an independent legal system (that protect minorities and human rights)". On a global scale the world would be more democratic if we could all vote for the American president, since he seems to kind of rule the world anyway ;-)
On a global scale the world would be more democratic if we could all vote for the American president
This is why literal democracy never works--people would simply vote for whoever promises the most favors instead of whoever wants to try to do what is right. This is why democracies always fail, and the only really lasting form of government is that of the republic (though benevolent dictatorships have had a good history, benevolent dictatorships don't always remain as such), which is what the United States has always been and will hopefully remain (though things get quite bad quite quickly when the people on welfare simply vote for the candidates who promise them the most "free" services).
As for the "chess news media", we simply need to adopt the same thing we practice in the United States, and that is to listen to several news services to try to get a decent idea of what is going on. There are four fairly good ones scattered across the political spectrum that, if you check out the stuff for all four, you should get a good picture--these are CNN (with a noticeable left-wing bias), ABC (with a slight left-wing bias), FOX (with a slight right-wing bias), and Washington Times (with a noticeable right-wing bias). If we want an even different perspective, we can check out BBC, whose bias strongly depends on who is writing the story. Their articles on many scientific issues of which I'm fairly familiar often display an extremely strong left-wing bias (so as often to be just flat-out wrong), so you're usually better off checking out the original scientific articles (and, more importantly, their references), where you'll get a very different and obviously much more realistic sense of what's really going on, but that, of course, takes quite a lot of time. This leads us back to chess, though it's less tedious here. When Chessbase makes some outrageous statement such as Zap!Chess Zanzibar "topping" the computer rating lists, a statement it made pretty much word-for-word some months ago, it's fairly easy to check out the computer rating lists and see that the definitions of "topping" that are given in most major dictionaries are apparently very different from Chessbase's definition of "topping". People can see the conditions under which the tests for the rating lists were implemented, they can see the games, and they can carry out their own tests if they desire. There are also other sources for chess news, such as ChessNinja, and even the Rybka forum to a decent extent, as the stories of the day are usually argued out to a good enough extent for observers to be able to form a fairly decent opinion of what's really going on. As long as people are aware that there are other chess news sites available, they should be able to wade through the inherent bias existent in many of them.
This is why literal democracy never works--people would simply vote for whoever promises the most favors instead of whoever wants to try to do what is right. This is why democracies always fail, and the only really lasting form of government is that of the republic (though benevolent dictatorships have had a good history, benevolent dictatorships don't always remain as such), which is what the United States has always been and will hopefully remain (though things get quite bad quite quickly when the people on welfare simply vote for the candidates who promise them the most "free" services).
As for the "chess news media", we simply need to adopt the same thing we practice in the United States, and that is to listen to several news services to try to get a decent idea of what is going on. There are four fairly good ones scattered across the political spectrum that, if you check out the stuff for all four, you should get a good picture--these are CNN (with a noticeable left-wing bias), ABC (with a slight left-wing bias), FOX (with a slight right-wing bias), and Washington Times (with a noticeable right-wing bias). If we want an even different perspective, we can check out BBC, whose bias strongly depends on who is writing the story. Their articles on many scientific issues of which I'm fairly familiar often display an extremely strong left-wing bias (so as often to be just flat-out wrong), so you're usually better off checking out the original scientific articles (and, more importantly, their references), where you'll get a very different and obviously much more realistic sense of what's really going on, but that, of course, takes quite a lot of time. This leads us back to chess, though it's less tedious here. When Chessbase makes some outrageous statement such as Zap!Chess Zanzibar "topping" the computer rating lists, a statement it made pretty much word-for-word some months ago, it's fairly easy to check out the computer rating lists and see that the definitions of "topping" that are given in most major dictionaries are apparently very different from Chessbase's definition of "topping". People can see the conditions under which the tests for the rating lists were implemented, they can see the games, and they can carry out their own tests if they desire. There are also other sources for chess news, such as ChessNinja, and even the Rybka forum to a decent extent, as the stories of the day are usually argued out to a good enough extent for observers to be able to form a fairly decent opinion of what's really going on. As long as people are aware that there are other chess news sites available, they should be able to wade through the inherent bias existent in many of them.
"This is why literal democracy never works--people would simply vote for whoever promises the most favors instead of whoever wants to try to do what is right."
On what evidence is this based? Its not how we vote in Scandinavia. What is your rating?
It looks like we moved away from the topic....
On what evidence is this based? Its not how we vote in Scandinavia. What is your rating?
It looks like we moved away from the topic....
Yes, as soon as we started talking about media bias, I was thinking of linking this to a new discussion in the "Chess" part of the forum, as I knew we'd probably go off topic fairly quickly. Anyway, I'm talking about how a democracy fails in comparison with a republic. This is based on the evidence accumulated over the millennia, evidence well-known to the founders of the United States, who knew that a large "literal" democracy would fail, and that a republic was needed instead, with people simply electing representatives to make the votes that actually have anything to do with decisions. Even in Roman times, it was known that a literal democracy would fail for this very reason.
As for my rating...I assume you're referring to FIDE rating? I don't have one--I don't play in tournaments. If I'm having a good day nowadays, I play at about the level of a weak expert. Back around my senior year in high school when I had more time to study the game, I was probably about the level of a weak master, based on rated internet games against titled players at longer time controls.
As for my rating...I assume you're referring to FIDE rating? I don't have one--I don't play in tournaments. If I'm having a good day nowadays, I play at about the level of a weak expert. Back around my senior year in high school when I had more time to study the game, I was probably about the level of a weak master, based on rated internet games against titled players at longer time controls.
So from what you write combined with my argument, I conclude that the founding fathers of America, knew the Democracy like it is practiced now-a-days in Scandinavia does not work?? Are you claiming that democracy (like its practiced in many European countries with proportional representation) does not work? To claim that X,Y and Z "knows" something is not the same as providing evidence.
The fact that you qualify your chess strength by emphasizing that your strength is for "longer time controls" suggest to me that you need a (chess) reality check.
Statistically there is a pretty close relationship between a chess players ability to play blitz and to play under longer time controls. Your chess strength for long time controls is thus probably quite similar to what it would be in blitz (non-club players usually does not realize this).
One nice thing about chess is that it can help develop our rigorous thinking. Rybka - to return the her - is a wonderful teacher who punish flawed or muddled thinking in very clear terms.
The fact that you qualify your chess strength by emphasizing that your strength is for "longer time controls" suggest to me that you need a (chess) reality check.
Statistically there is a pretty close relationship between a chess players ability to play blitz and to play under longer time controls. Your chess strength for long time controls is thus probably quite similar to what it would be in blitz (non-club players usually does not realize this).
One nice thing about chess is that it can help develop our rigorous thinking. Rybka - to return the her - is a wonderful teacher who punish flawed or muddled thinking in very clear terms.
No, I'm claiming that a pure democracy, where a very large number of people vote on such and such issues, tends not to work--that's why only minor issues are decided by local referenda, and major issues are decided by voting between representatives who have been elected by the population, thus in the style of a republic, not a democracy. There are very few true democracies in the world.
Actually, even when I was a bit more practiced in chess, my strength at longer time controls tended to be about 200 points higher than my strength at blitz (I think I know why this is); the same is true now when I play quite rarely (my blitz rating now is around 1800; it was over 2000 when I was younger). I have never played chess "frequently", but when I was in high school, I had a lot of time to study it, and I also had the privilege of being friends with an international master, against whom I played quite often; he always killed me in blitz matches, though I tended to score about 30% or so in longer games. This was also true on ICC against titled players (I rarely played titled players in rated games at blitz, as my rating was too low, though I did have a blitz loss to Vladimir Akopian on the black side of a Caro-Kann, thus accounting for the otherwise strange phenomenon of having more games against titled players at longer time controls). Anyway, there are quite a lot of people with noticeably lower blitz ratings than "standard" ratings, and the main reason for this is fairly well-known: it usually occurs among players who don't play very often and so occasionally blunder at blitz. This is partially true of me--at standard time controls, after deciding on my move, I then take a little bit of time to check things over to make sure that I'm not making an obvious blunder; I generally don't do this at blitz, where I play more intuitively (and also generally less alertly, as I only play blitz when I don't have very much time on my hands in the first place).
Actually, even when I was a bit more practiced in chess, my strength at longer time controls tended to be about 200 points higher than my strength at blitz (I think I know why this is); the same is true now when I play quite rarely (my blitz rating now is around 1800; it was over 2000 when I was younger). I have never played chess "frequently", but when I was in high school, I had a lot of time to study it, and I also had the privilege of being friends with an international master, against whom I played quite often; he always killed me in blitz matches, though I tended to score about 30% or so in longer games. This was also true on ICC against titled players (I rarely played titled players in rated games at blitz, as my rating was too low, though I did have a blitz loss to Vladimir Akopian on the black side of a Caro-Kann, thus accounting for the otherwise strange phenomenon of having more games against titled players at longer time controls). Anyway, there are quite a lot of people with noticeably lower blitz ratings than "standard" ratings, and the main reason for this is fairly well-known: it usually occurs among players who don't play very often and so occasionally blunder at blitz. This is partially true of me--at standard time controls, after deciding on my move, I then take a little bit of time to check things over to make sure that I'm not making an obvious blunder; I generally don't do this at blitz, where I play more intuitively (and also generally less alertly, as I only play blitz when I don't have very much time on my hands in the first place).
Switzerland that is one of the wealthiest countries in the world is to my knowledge quite a democratic country.
The Scandinavian countries are not run as republics, but all have proportional representation. Are you telling me that these countries tend not to work?
I really did not intend to start a long discussion about your chess abilities. What counts as a chess player is somewhat subjective. I once read that Kasparov only considers players with an elo of 2300+ as players that are able to play something that resembles chess. That makes some sense. When I was an active chess player I had 2300 elo, but when I now look at my games I played then, it is clear that I understood next to nothing about chess. Thanks, to Rybka I think I have a much better grasp of the game, though I am not sure how much this knowledge would lift my rating against humans. I am doing quite well against Rybka at all time controls.
I think you might find the book "eat the rich", I referred to, interesting, though the book does not discuss whether majority systems or proportional representation leads to the best societies. One of his points is that democracy does not work, unless you also have an independent press (that freely can expose corruption and other malpractices) as well as an independent legal system (than ensures human rights). More might be needed for creating conditions for a good society and personally I prefer to live in a welfare state where there hardly are any poor and marginalized people.
The Scandinavian countries are not run as republics, but all have proportional representation. Are you telling me that these countries tend not to work?
I really did not intend to start a long discussion about your chess abilities. What counts as a chess player is somewhat subjective. I once read that Kasparov only considers players with an elo of 2300+ as players that are able to play something that resembles chess. That makes some sense. When I was an active chess player I had 2300 elo, but when I now look at my games I played then, it is clear that I understood next to nothing about chess. Thanks, to Rybka I think I have a much better grasp of the game, though I am not sure how much this knowledge would lift my rating against humans. I am doing quite well against Rybka at all time controls.
I think you might find the book "eat the rich", I referred to, interesting, though the book does not discuss whether majority systems or proportional representation leads to the best societies. One of his points is that democracy does not work, unless you also have an independent press (that freely can expose corruption and other malpractices) as well as an independent legal system (than ensures human rights). More might be needed for creating conditions for a good society and personally I prefer to live in a welfare state where there hardly are any poor and marginalized people.
Soren,
Switzerland is obviously an extremely well run country, but is not frequently used as an example of a great democracy. The reason for this is that women, a majority of the electorate, did not get the right to vote or run for parliament until a referendum in 1971 which passed by a 2:1 margin. Prior to that, a previous referendum to allow women to vote was rejected in 1959, also by a 2:1 margin. For comparison purposes, women got the right to vote in the US in 1920 and in the UK in 1928.
Regards,
Alan
Switzerland is obviously an extremely well run country, but is not frequently used as an example of a great democracy. The reason for this is that women, a majority of the electorate, did not get the right to vote or run for parliament until a referendum in 1971 which passed by a 2:1 margin. Prior to that, a previous referendum to allow women to vote was rejected in 1959, also by a 2:1 margin. For comparison purposes, women got the right to vote in the US in 1920 and in the UK in 1928.
Regards,
Alan
I actually knew this and accept this as an argument against the Switz system. That why I also think a strong legal system (that has the power to implement the human rights) should be in place. I am a great supporter of proportional representation in homogeneous societies. In inhomogeneous societies with large different cultural groups its much more complicated and I do not claim to have the answer.
I really don't see anything wrong with proportional representation--but that's very definitely not what one would call a pure democracy (in which case there would be no need for representatives, as voting on major decisions would take place with the people, not their representatives).
As for the welfare states, while these might have a lower percentage of what one might call "poor", they also generally have noticeably less opportunity for entrepreneurship. It's a question of whether one thinks that it's the responsibility of the people to make something of themselves or that of the government. In societies where it's the responsibility of the people, there is much greater opportunity for really great success. In the United States, which is kind of a partial welfare state, the incredibly vast majority of the poor are people who simply never took the opportunity to try to either get an education or to do something with their education. It's true that we have people who have had bad luck in their work, but those people tend not to remain poor for very long. The way the welfare system works in the United States is such that people often tend to be motivated not to find work because they know they can live off of welfare, but that as soon as they get a job, they'll suddenly have to start working really hard and they'll lose their welfare. At the same time, there is great encouragement for businesspeople trying to make a living and especially to expand the corporations so as to try to make more money and at the same time create more jobs. In the "large" welfare states such as France, on the other hand, there are unemployment rates similar to what existed in the United States during the Great Depression. If such unemployment rates existed here, no members of Congress would ever be reelected. Anyway, I've seen you mention that from "Eat the Rich" before, and I agree with the need for an independent press (which we currently have, though there are some members of Congress, including some presidential candidates, who are talking about strongly regulating that) and an independent legal system on the local and state levels. However, there is still a need for a national legal system associated with the government, which we have in the form of the Supreme Court, to declare constitutionality or lack thereof of federal laws or federal decisions (though controversy has often arisen when decisions have been made on issues such as abortion that many people feel are better left up to the individual states to decide).
Meanwhile, on the chess side, my chess knowledge now is definitely better than when I was at my peak playing performance, and much of it is due to watching games from engines like Rybka and trying to digest what's really going on. However, due to the fact that I hardly ever actually play, the probability of blunders is much higher than it was when I was younger; this is even more problematic because my style has changed--I like to play a bit more aggressively now, while I played much more positionally when I was younger. It's kind of like reading a math or physics textbook but not actually attempting any of the practice problems or proofs.
As for the welfare states, while these might have a lower percentage of what one might call "poor", they also generally have noticeably less opportunity for entrepreneurship. It's a question of whether one thinks that it's the responsibility of the people to make something of themselves or that of the government. In societies where it's the responsibility of the people, there is much greater opportunity for really great success. In the United States, which is kind of a partial welfare state, the incredibly vast majority of the poor are people who simply never took the opportunity to try to either get an education or to do something with their education. It's true that we have people who have had bad luck in their work, but those people tend not to remain poor for very long. The way the welfare system works in the United States is such that people often tend to be motivated not to find work because they know they can live off of welfare, but that as soon as they get a job, they'll suddenly have to start working really hard and they'll lose their welfare. At the same time, there is great encouragement for businesspeople trying to make a living and especially to expand the corporations so as to try to make more money and at the same time create more jobs. In the "large" welfare states such as France, on the other hand, there are unemployment rates similar to what existed in the United States during the Great Depression. If such unemployment rates existed here, no members of Congress would ever be reelected. Anyway, I've seen you mention that from "Eat the Rich" before, and I agree with the need for an independent press (which we currently have, though there are some members of Congress, including some presidential candidates, who are talking about strongly regulating that) and an independent legal system on the local and state levels. However, there is still a need for a national legal system associated with the government, which we have in the form of the Supreme Court, to declare constitutionality or lack thereof of federal laws or federal decisions (though controversy has often arisen when decisions have been made on issues such as abortion that many people feel are better left up to the individual states to decide).
Meanwhile, on the chess side, my chess knowledge now is definitely better than when I was at my peak playing performance, and much of it is due to watching games from engines like Rybka and trying to digest what's really going on. However, due to the fact that I hardly ever actually play, the probability of blunders is much higher than it was when I was younger; this is even more problematic because my style has changed--I like to play a bit more aggressively now, while I played much more positionally when I was younger. It's kind of like reading a math or physics textbook but not actually attempting any of the practice problems or proofs.
""I once read that Kasparov only considers players with an elo of 2300+ as players that are able to play something that resembles chess.""
... and that's why, on the 6th day, God created Rybka ...
""Thanks to Rybka, I think I have a much better grasp of the game""
Thanks to Rybka, and other chess engines, opening book authors, computer-chess as learning tool = agree agree agree agree 1000000%
... and that's why, on the 6th day, God created Rybka ...
""Thanks to Rybka, I think I have a much better grasp of the game""
Thanks to Rybka, and other chess engines, opening book authors, computer-chess as learning tool = agree agree agree agree 1000000%
In theory, anti-monopoly laws apply to such situations. However, even when there is a lot of money at stake (see Microsoft), it's nearly impossible to enforce the spirit of such laws.
And, when a law is unenforceable, does it really exist? See for example computer use in correspondence chess.
Vas
And, when a law is unenforceable, does it really exist? See for example computer use in correspondence chess.
Vas
Chessbase doesn't have a monopoly on chess news. There are thousands of chess news sites in dozens of languages and barriers to new organizations wanting to provide this service are very low (anyone can go to the various events and report on them). If people are primarily relying on Chessbase for chess news, its because they feel that this is a better product than is available elsewhere. In my opinion, Chessbase does an excellent good job covering major events. As with any non-public news organizations, advertising is used to justify the costs of gathering and reporting the news. Along with advertising for Chessbase products, this may also include enhanced coverage of events where Chessbase has an interest. This is the way things get done in a capitalistic society and its interesting to see how many people confuse Chessbase news with gospel.
BTW, monopolies are not illegal in the US. Companies can get in trouble for abuse of monopoly powers, but this is very rarely applied. As you point out, Microsoft is actually the prime example of how this can happen. But note that they didn't get in trouble for having 98% of the PC OS market, they got in trouble for damaging other companies businesses by tying other capabilities into their OS. Monopolies may be illegal in the EU but nobody really knows for sure. The EU action against Microsoft will be closely watched to find out (along with the recent complaint against Intel).
Regards,
Alan
BTW, monopolies are not illegal in the US. Companies can get in trouble for abuse of monopoly powers, but this is very rarely applied. As you point out, Microsoft is actually the prime example of how this can happen. But note that they didn't get in trouble for having 98% of the PC OS market, they got in trouble for damaging other companies businesses by tying other capabilities into their OS. Monopolies may be illegal in the EU but nobody really knows for sure. The EU action against Microsoft will be closely watched to find out (along with the recent complaint against Intel).
Regards,
Alan
This is not toward anyone in particular- it's toward ChessBase Sleazy Management style tactics. They do have some good stuff " forgetaboutit."
In point of fact ChessBase created this " house of cards" and now they are going to have to deal with it.
What they chose to see, and what they failed to see in their planned “Grand Charade” was the feebleness of that act.
They may as well have rented out a garage-that’s how vacuous “ The Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge” came to be seen.
And, the "kids" they probably rented the kids-dressed them up in Mandarin Costumes to move the pieces around. They looked miserable!
What a bunch of hucksters! It reminds me of some of the hustles I came across growing up in Brooklyn and Astoria, Queens.
sidserious
Addendum:
Any self respecting person that intends to do contractual business with these people aught to consider this issue carefully before doing business with ChessBase.
In point of fact ChessBase created this " house of cards" and now they are going to have to deal with it.
What they chose to see, and what they failed to see in their planned “Grand Charade” was the feebleness of that act.
They may as well have rented out a garage-that’s how vacuous “ The Ultimate Computer Chess Challenge” came to be seen.
And, the "kids" they probably rented the kids-dressed them up in Mandarin Costumes to move the pieces around. They looked miserable!
What a bunch of hucksters! It reminds me of some of the hustles I came across growing up in Brooklyn and Astoria, Queens.
sidserious
Addendum:
Any self respecting person that intends to do contractual business with these people aught to consider this issue carefully before doing business with ChessBase.
I thought it was an interesting match. As for the name, anytime someone uses an adjective like "Ultimate", skepticism is generally in order, but in some ways it did live up to its name. For instance, this was an historically large prize fund for an engine-engine match and in many competitive events (e.g. poker), the size of the prize fund is at least as important as the level of the competitors. As far as the reporting goes, I thought it did a pretty good job of promoting the event and the local, and I suspect that both CB and Kirsan were pleased with the results.
Regards,
Alan
Regards,
Alan
Kirsan can I call him the " Godfather " of chess? CB is the chess warehouse where they laundry the money? Forgetaboutit!!!
"He's President of the Republic of Kalmykia...Soon after his election, Ilyumzhinov introduced presidential rule, concentrating power in his own hands..." He called early elections in 1995 and was re-elected unopposed..."He won re-election in 2002...
"He once campaigned under the slogan "a wealthy president is a safeguard against corruption."
He also pledged to introduce what he called an "economic dictatorship" in the republic.
From November 1995 to present Ilyumzhinov has been President of the World Chess Federation.
On June 2, 2006, Ilyumzhinov was reelected as FIDE President by a margin of 96-54 against his opponent Bessel Kok.[13] In an October 2006 Wall Street Journal article Gary Kasparov harshly criticized Ilyumzhinov FIDE's leadership stating: "(Ilyumzhinov) has created a vertical column of power that would be familiar to any observer of Russia today. He runs the chess world in the same authoritarian way he runs his impoverished republic
All this according to Wikie.
Allen, let me tell you- In Brooklyn, this guy would be a "made man", no doubt about, within a very short time, the a head of a family .
"He's President of the Republic of Kalmykia...Soon after his election, Ilyumzhinov introduced presidential rule, concentrating power in his own hands..." He called early elections in 1995 and was re-elected unopposed..."He won re-election in 2002...
"He once campaigned under the slogan "a wealthy president is a safeguard against corruption."
He also pledged to introduce what he called an "economic dictatorship" in the republic.
From November 1995 to present Ilyumzhinov has been President of the World Chess Federation.
On June 2, 2006, Ilyumzhinov was reelected as FIDE President by a margin of 96-54 against his opponent Bessel Kok.[13] In an October 2006 Wall Street Journal article Gary Kasparov harshly criticized Ilyumzhinov FIDE's leadership stating: "(Ilyumzhinov) has created a vertical column of power that would be familiar to any observer of Russia today. He runs the chess world in the same authoritarian way he runs his impoverished republic
All this according to Wikie.
Allen, let me tell you- In Brooklyn, this guy would be a "made man", no doubt about, within a very short time, the a head of a family .
One more thing-It always amazes me how wise guys like this always have to have their hands dipped into something that gives them the appearance of being socially acceptable-legitimate if you will. But, it doesn't take long for them to see a hustle even there and soon even that gets blacken and soiled. The easiest answer would be to walk away from FIDE. Create a new Federation.
But, of course, I understand the need to turn to less potent subjects - its easy to grapple with issues that are abstracted and have no real immediate bearing on your imminent future.
The question should never stop being asking-How was a character like -Kirsan Ilyumzhinov- ever allow to continue to keep his hold on FIDE? Kasparov wrote about it- there have been failed attempts to vote him out-but some say dirty tricks keep him in.
I am surprised that there isn't a broader outcry from a larger base to have him removed. Now is a critical time since he is starting to get his hands into computer chess tournaments.
Addendum:
Published on " Susan Polgar's Web blog"
The question should never stop being asking-How was a character like -Kirsan Ilyumzhinov- ever allow to continue to keep his hold on FIDE? Kasparov wrote about it- there have been failed attempts to vote him out-but some say dirty tricks keep him in.
I am surprised that there isn't a broader outcry from a larger base to have him removed. Now is a critical time since he is starting to get his hands into computer chess tournaments.
Addendum:
Published on " Susan Polgar's Web blog"
Actually, when I used the word monopoly, I meant a situation which is inherently subject to regulation, and not only a case of a really huge market share. Looking at the definition, it's not clear now whether this is built-in to the word.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly
For example, if the same conglomerate owns a shoe company and a TV station, the TV station should not use the front of providing news to give underhanded advertising to the shoes. The same applies to Microsoft using Windows to push IE, etc. And yes, even though it's usually quite obvious, I can definitely see why it would be really hard to formalize the laws and regulate everything.
Besides, in some ways, not regulating monopolies also makes some sense. If Netscape really wants to promote their browser, then they are perfectly free to write their own OS.
Vas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly
For example, if the same conglomerate owns a shoe company and a TV station, the TV station should not use the front of providing news to give underhanded advertising to the shoes. The same applies to Microsoft using Windows to push IE, etc. And yes, even though it's usually quite obvious, I can definitely see why it would be really hard to formalize the laws and regulate everything.
Besides, in some ways, not regulating monopolies also makes some sense. If Netscape really wants to promote their browser, then they are perfectly free to write their own OS.
Vas
I'd hate to have to convince people to develop and distribute a new OS just so a browser could be given away with it. This is the predicament of every company having a capability that MS can bundle into Windows. Its a lot easier to see the problem than the solution.
I don't think there would be an antitrust problem with your shoe company/TV station combination. IT&T had this type of combination and didn't have any regulatory problems with trying to get their divisions to work together. Anti-trust, at least in the US is focused on companies with horizontal or vertical integration in a single industry where an example of horizontal integration would be owning or franchising a large percentage of the gas stations in one area and an example of vertical integration would be owning companies that extract oil, refine oil, distribute oil and gasoline, and sell oil and gasoline. Horizontal integration is considered a bigger threat since a vertically integrated business must still compete with their end product.
Alan
I don't think there would be an antitrust problem with your shoe company/TV station combination. IT&T had this type of combination and didn't have any regulatory problems with trying to get their divisions to work together. Anti-trust, at least in the US is focused on companies with horizontal or vertical integration in a single industry where an example of horizontal integration would be owning or franchising a large percentage of the gas stations in one area and an example of vertical integration would be owning companies that extract oil, refine oil, distribute oil and gasoline, and sell oil and gasoline. Horizontal integration is considered a bigger threat since a vertically integrated business must still compete with their end product.
Alan
I completely agree with the last sentence in your first paragraph. Usually, the problem is 'obvious', but I can also see how it would be hard to formalize the laws and enforce them.
Re. vertical integration, isn't Windows + IE just about a prototype example of vertical integration? They have to compete with their end product.
I'm not familiar with IT&T, but maybe they actually didn't cross monopolistic boundaries.
Vas
Re. vertical integration, isn't Windows + IE just about a prototype example of vertical integration? They have to compete with their end product.
I'm not familiar with IT&T, but maybe they actually didn't cross monopolistic boundaries.
Vas
Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Susan Polgar asks for readers' opinions on chess engines.
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