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Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-11 19:15 Edited 2007-07-11 19:18
Hi Pia,

Where did you get his statements-from him directly? Lots of misguided energy their-I'd say! So! What happens now to Strelka?
Does it get drop kicked?

sidserious
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-11 19:22
Evgenii Manev has made a translation to CCC on what Y.Osipov has said in a Russian forum.
CCC translation = http://64.68.157.89/forum/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=130132&t=15009
Russian forum = http://kasparovchess.crestbook.com/viewtopic.php?pid=93578#p93578

Translation follows:

"Y.Osipov:

Ahh again created a mess… I’m already beginning to get used that each of my body movements provokes a storm of paradoxical feelings, which I could not ignore, according to present tendencies of the theory of verbal positivism…
Therefore I’ll tell the whole truth in order of how Strelka was created. I hope this will explain a lot.

1.As the basis of program was taken source code of Fruit (little less than two years ago).

2.The algorithm has been completely rewritten to bitboards. This operation had not changed anything, only improved performance twice (x2).

3.Since then, work has begun on improving the evaluation function and search algorithm. Optimization of evaluation functions was performed by correlation analysis. I sought the maximum correlation between static evaluation and minimax.

4.After Rybka had appeared a thought was borh to make a correlation analysis of Rybka assessment of the positions. I varied weights of assessment functions, I changed heuristics extensions and reductions in the search, and eventually I was able to achieve a very high degree of similarity of behaviour of Strelka and Rybka. In some positions, it was just a perfect match.

5.I was looking for and finding a reliable (and unreliable too) information on the algorithm of Rybka. Having carefully studied the works of Larry Kaufman researches of estimating imbalance material, as I had a great suspicion that Vasik used the same idea.

6.And the most legally suspicious thing : I carefully studied the code of Rybka using disassembler trying to understand the algorithm of its work. Altogether, I studied about 20% of the code. I am not interested in how works UCI-protokol or other functions, such as move generator. I already have my own ones, and I was not intending to engage with any protocol, since I was not going to make an engine.
I was only interested in search heuristics and evaluation function. This allowed me to achieve greater similarity (resemblance) with Rybka. In addition, I found that Vasik walked the same way (path) – he has taken Fruit as a basis, rewrote it to bitboard and included tables of material imbalance of Kaufman. Some of the tables I kidnapped (ravished) from the Rybka.

7. The last point in the history was made by man nicknamed Rybkin. Today we can say-he hammered the last nail in the coffin of Strelka. Unlike most participants in the forum, I believed him because I already knew much about Rybka by myself. It was because of him that I begun to understand the algorithm of how Rybka used tables of material evaluation. Rybkin was not right in one thing – he was wrong in his understanding that this big table was as a result of functions like material_comp_info. I am almost certain that Vasik processed big base of games, and the result of that was that table. In fact, this is the same what Kaufman did in the late 1990s.

8. After all for no apparent reason I wanted to make an engine and participate in tournaments. At the site WBEC I read the requirements for the engines - there has been emphasis on the fact that should be maintained the protocol Winboard and UCI-engines must work through an adapter Polyglot. I decided that writing Winboard-protocol is the shortest path. At least, that has to saving me the study of Polyglot. I looked in the Internet, and found the source code of Beowulf, from which I copied the protocol. Then it turned out that man who wrote Beowulf -- Corbit, subsequently investigated the source code of Strelka, and he was very surprised to find in it the code of Beowulf.

9. The New UCI-version of Strelka virtually has no difference from the first beta. The only thing I succeded to make was to find a functional relationship to the evaluation of material imbalance and somehow to correct these evaluations (assesments). The rest of the source code of Strelka remains virtually unchanged. So I was a little surprised by the allegations that the first version was not clone, but the second one became a clone. I can once again send the sources to Corbit and Hoffmann – let them compare.
That's it the whole story. You can lynch me if my actions have serious criminality. If so, I will not repent (regret ?), and would prefer to remain a free artist, just the same I has been so far. I will live as before and do what is interesting to me. And I don’t care about any ratings, participation in tournaments, all kinds of CCRL, etc. I can live without them, as they -- without me. I am a free man, and not promised to marry anyone.
"
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-07-12 08:07
Note that this explanation is itself bogus:

   a) 'Osipov' claims that he changed the Fruit board representation from mailbox to bitboard and got a 2x speedup in performance. This is simply a clueless comment, there would be no speedup of anywhere near this magnitude.
   b) 'Osipov' claims to take only Rybka's eval and search, yet Strelka 1.8 uses Rybka's exact UCI output strings.
   c) 'Osipov' claims that he added a Winboard parser (after date of Fruit 2.1 release) so that Strelka could play in Ridderkerk - another clueless comment.
   d) ...

I will think a little bit about this. Maybe what I should do is get the Strelka 1.8 source code, claim it as my own, and release it under GPL.

With these anonymous cloners who risk nothing, and with current Rybka level, computer chess may be headed for some turbulence.

Vas
Parent - - By Christopher Conkie (**) [gb] Date 2007-07-12 12:58 Edited 2007-07-12 13:29
I always thought Fruit used a 16x12 board. A combination of 10x12 (mailbox) and 16x8 (0x88).

To me mailbox is in it's purest sense what is used in TSCP, that is to say just 10x12.

2 times speed up seems ludicrous

Also you have new mail.

Christopher
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-07-14 06:36
I don't know if there's a clear-cut definition. For me, 10x12, 0x88 and 16x12 are subcategories of mailbox. The idea is the same - you add squares to more easily recognize illegal moves and square relationships.

Vas
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) [il] Date 2007-07-12 13:20
I wonder how do you know that there is not going to be 2xspeedup in performance of fruit if you use bitboards.

Note that even if you tried to change fruit board representation to bitboard and did not get improvement of being twice faster it does not mean that it is impossible to do it and maybe it is possible to do it if you use bitboards in a different way.

Uri
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-07-14 06:38
Intuition Uri :)

For me this goes in the category of 'obvious'.

Vas
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-11 21:04

>Hi Pia,


>Where did you get his statements-from him directly? Lots of misguided energy their-I'd say! So! What happens now to Strelka?
>Does it get drop kicked?


>sidserious


Hi.

I get his statements from his post on Russin forum.

Lot of people on the forum supports Juri Osipov, even harder now. And they wants to know Strelka's ideas. "Patriots."
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-11 21:54 Edited 2007-07-11 21:57
Hi Pia,

I see-I was given to understand that " Strelka was one of two dogs sent in space in the 50's. The other being "Bleka." What type of forum are you speaking of-is it a politic forum contemporary to today's political challenges? Can you give some insights into the environment-is anti positivist-you know what is behind it, if anything. Why do they see in this guy -In truth - Would you do me a favor please and tell him this for me- tell him that for the most part

He is only a maker of a Collages- that can at best, only mimic a fragment of the hidden truth in the work of art that he sought to steal from- and for that, he but a cheap imitator, and at worst a thief in the night.

Please, tell him that for me.
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-12 05:45
OK, I did:) No need to thanks.
Yes, Belka and Strelka. Laika didn't get a chance to survive.
The forum is kasparovchess/engine room/"Our new engine Strelka!!!" The point is 'our', hmmphh. Althrough Gary Kasparov is a politican now, people there isn't concerned much about policits but chess and excellience, I think. George Tsavdaris already uncovered it's location. I guessed Osivpov's statements from his post, translation of which George Tsavdaris posted above.

I forget to mention, Jury Osipov is also admitted that he taked Beowulf's UCI protocols.
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-16 17:48 Edited 2007-07-16 18:16

>Why do they see in this guy -In truth


One autor admitted that he don't care about law at all! And some people supports Jury Osipov in the idea that all ideas and codes are everyone's property just because Vasik used some public ideas from Fruit too and by that Osipov did good for chess. ...Or it's not Fruit matter but just public ideas.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-16 19:27 Edited 2007-07-16 19:32
Hi Pia,

There seems to be two issues here-
The one that I am interested in is the connection (if any) between Yury Osipov and "DarkAvenger". Do you know if their's was a consorted adventure?

I decided that there has been enough negativism- to hell with that-

regards

Robert
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-16 23:03 Edited 2007-07-16 23:07
Strong suspicions that Strelka is a Rybka's clone were long before this topic on the forum - immidiatly after Strelka's appearance.
I suspect that 'Rybkin', 'Natasha Strelka' and 'Master X' was Osipov's nicknames and very likely one of them was first who said that Strelka is a Rybka's clone.
If Osipov wanted a fight then it definetly worth investigation.
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-17 00:49
Investigating furtner history of the Russian forum: Osipov admitted that 'Natasha Strelka' his nickname and very likely 'Jury Osipov' is also his nickname. 'Natasha Strelka' was one of 'ancient' who first talked about that Strelka is Rybka's clone, if not the first. Some first posts were deleted - Osipov asked for.
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-17 00:59
Hi Pia,

We will have to continue this at another time. This issue is too convoluted for me to follow, and I have other things to take care of - chow.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-17 15:24
Pia,

Honestly, Mr. Osipov's chess engine will be remembered without exception. 

Mr. Osipov's only accomplishment would be acquiring a " counting coup " against this forum- and even that would be in question, depending upon whether he is capable of  providing proof  that he was in communication with " Mr. DarkAvenger" and that they together planned the event from beginning to end.

Otherwise, Mr. Osipov-talented as he is, will forever be remembered, as a childish man, with a narcissistic self-indulgence-with an egoistic penchant for the whimsical- and a total lack of the historical perspective.

Best Wishes,

Robert 
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-17 23:50
Now I see! There is no logic at all. 'Osipov' is just playing a role.

OK, Robert, thanks :)
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-18 10:29
I mean, he was "counting coup".

1. But why?
2. What it means, exactly?
3. What next?

I'm not really a spy yet, but for me there is enough evidence that 'Osipov' has commication with 'DarkAvenger.'
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-18 17:48 Edited 2007-07-18 17:58
Hi Pia,

A spy? What could you possibly be spying on? There is nothing here to spy on!

"A nonviolent demonstration of bravery, it consisted of touching an enemy warrior, with the hand or with a coup stick, then running away unharmed..." "

"The phrase "counting coup" can also refer to the recounting of stories about battle exploits."

Counting Coup! A Native American Term We will Name Yuri " Little Wolf "
Attachment: wolf_necklace.jpg (18k)
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-18 19:21
Pia,

How can you know conclusively that Osipov has communication with Mr. DarkAvenger? Without him having come right out and saying so?

What next-

Well! Little Wolf, is going to have churn out a chess engine that is "totally" comprised of his own genius and not one that can only surpass an archaic museum piece. That ought to keep him out of trouble for a good long time.
Don't you think!
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-18 21:46
It doesn't suits their plans. They couldn't tell the truth directly before what I say:

I used to tell like everyone - that Rybka is the strongest chess engine in the world.
There was a motive for Osipov to create a copy.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-18 22:06
Pia,

That still wouldn't cut it- in point of fact even if we were to grant him the benefit of the doubt-he still did not surpass Rybka by any stretch of the imagination!

His achievement was the disruption he caused between the Comic Book Character Mr. DarkAvenger and Rybka Forum with the question of Strelka being an original enterprise-but beyond that there is nothing.

In truth we are discussing the aftermath of a pretty much forgotten issue-

But, where do you come in on all this-what is your relationship to Osipov- is I may ask.

Robert
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-18 23:13
He is my friend.
The issue is - I told him "Let's play chess using chess engines?" And before game was started I said "Maybe we won't play chess? I was interested in which engine is the strongest in world, and now I know - it's Rybka."
So it's only a game I see, "counting coup."
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-18 23:37 Edited 2007-07-19 00:08
Pia,

A Sioux brave also ran the risk when he approached his emeny and touched him with his "coup stick" -he risk that it could turn ugly and even dangerous with one loosing face or worse. Not a very nice game to play. Take care.

Best Wishes,

Robert
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-19 00:02
Yes, he was defending his honor, very brave.
Game was between engines only.
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-19 04:17
But it can't be right.
I told him truth and what he did?
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-19 11:36
If 'Osipov' was creating his engine but then decided to make Strelka to be like Rybka then it could only means that 'Osipov' is my old friend which I personally know. But obviosly it's not so!

Strelka is indeed a clone.

Don't you think I'm Dark Avenger too!
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-19 15:18 Edited 2007-07-19 15:21
What! Do you mean, do I think you are Osipov! I always keep open all options. But, that would make no difference. Ultimately, if deception is the game then there is nothing to be gained. I would have to conclude that there is a real problem with your inability to be real with people.

Chow.
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-20 00:41 Edited 2007-07-20 00:58
No, I think that Osipov is my friend's clone. Osipov plays my friend and I playing Osipov's friend - Dark Avenger.
Dark Avenger blaming Osipov for cloning Rybka like I should blame my friend if he would clone Rybka. But I won't!

EDIT: Because my friend would never-ever would do such thing. I told him truth - he should talk too.
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-20 00:46
What does this have to do with anything?
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) [de] Date 2007-07-20 02:07
Please make a stop with such nonsense. In the past, you make some interessting posts, but now I see always bullshit. Nobody in this Rybka-forum is interested in Osipov. Please go to the Fruit Forum, because Strelka is based on Fruit (as Osipov says). Your friend is fine and maybe intelligent and brave, but I´m not interessted in personal affairs. If Strelka will be published under GPL, you can post it in this forum!
Parent - - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-20 04:01
Strelka will never be pubshed under GPL, I think - all topics about Strelka on Russian forum were closed or deleted.
Parent - - By Michael Waesch [de] Date 2007-07-20 04:19
Lucky them!

Mike
Parent - By Pia (****) [ru] Date 2007-07-20 14:04
What if I say that Rybka might be 'artifical' project too?
But I don't see why if she is legal :)
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-11 19:19

>He kidnapped some Larry Kauffman's evaluation tables from Rybka.


The word kidnapped, is very funny here! :):):)
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-11 19:45 Edited 2007-07-11 19:47
Yeah! This guy is "kidnapping" ideas and "ravishing" chess engines. He's out there, man! Paristroika- came a little to late for him!
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-11 20:14 Edited 2007-07-11 20:40
Hi George,

Surprisingly enough, even with all this disclosure, I still see Ridderkerk and UCI Superengine.com carrying Strelka. I suppose it will take time for this to sink in.  I wonder how far this will go-this is a real test case for the chess engine community especially when one considers that it comes right after the big to do over  the idea behind Gridchess-regardless of the collaboration their. Considering that this guy  took source codes from a number of people I wounder if he could be could be liable. Are these source codes copyright protected?

Regards,

Robert
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-11 21:51 Edited 2007-07-11 22:49

>Are these source codes copyright protected?


Rybka's are possibly not.
Fruit's are protected under GPL so the author of Strelka must give the source code to the public if he used Fruit's code for his program.

>Surprisingly enough, even with all this disclosure, I still see Ridderkerk and UCI Superengine.com carrying Strelka.


I don't see any reason to remove Strelka from there.
I'm always interested using clones that are not identical to the original engine. If the cloned engine just use parts of another engine or engines, but has also original code and ideas that makes it to play differently from the original engines, then i'm interested in this engine.
Of course if all these are NOT kept secret.
If the author says he has used this and that code for developing his engine, then i don't see a problem as long as he does not make commercial the engine.

Also if the code has been taken from a closed source engine with disassembling methods then this is illegal....
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-11 22:04
Hi George,

Thank you for the info. It gets really complicated.
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-12 04:58
Before we get to far afield from this guys act I just wanted to put his disclosure into perspective using different terms.

If a writer so much as uses a paragraph that is a copy or even grossly similar in context-that is,  if the conceptual theme is similar- it would be considered plagiarism- and all hell breaks loose. Why should it be any different with the development and authorship of chess engines-is not a chess engine intellectual property?
Parent - - By RVisitor (*) [us] Date 2007-07-12 17:51 Edited 2007-07-12 18:23
Using RecStudio we can reverse engineer the first section of code posted by DarkAvenger for Rybka1.0 (under RootSearch)

            if(( *((ebx >> 6 & 0x3f) * 4 + 6716048) & 0xe) == 2) {
                eax = ebx >> 3 & 7;
                if(eax == 6) {
                    goto L0040d4db;
                }
                if(eax == 1) {
L0040d4db:
                    ecx = ebx;
                    L0040DA20();
                    V13 = 1;
                    if(al != 0) {
                        goto L0040d4f0;
                    }
                }
            }
            V13 = 0;

How difficult is this to convert to C, and what would our experts say about its originality?

Likewise, here is the RecStudio version of the NullMove Rybka1.0 code:

if(ebp >= 2 && *(edi + 0x18) >= A4) {
        ecx = M00667c20;
        eax = *(ecx * 8 + 6716384) | *(ecx * 8 + 6716368);
        edx = *(ecx * 8 + 6716388) | *(ecx * 8 + 6716372);
        eax = eax | *(ecx * 8 + 6716352);
        edx = edx | *(ecx * 8 + 6716356);
        eax = eax | *(ecx * 8 + 6716336);
        if(!(eax = eax | edx | *(ecx * 8 + 6716340))) {

Here is the reversed version of DarkAvenger's  Rybka1.0 Evaluate() code:

    esi = A8; // A8 is an argument passed to the function
    (save)edi;
    edi = ecx * 0xd47;
    eax = M00667c50 & 262143; // 262143 is the decimal version  of 3FFFF hex

All of these examples could easily be converted to C and copied to another program.

Perhaps the author of Strelka would like to show us the code from his program for these sections.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-12 19:16
That guy won't even give you the right time of day.To put is frankly- That dog just won't hunt, dude!
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-13 04:55 Edited 2007-07-13 05:03
What a turn of events-I am telling you-everyone seems to have a different take on what Strelka is! Dan Corbit threw a wrench into  the whole works-what next?

Will, Yuri, come out of this smelling like a rose,after all?

Here I am calling the guy a snake in the grass. I  should never have caved but like everyone else I was itching to throw those rocks. I couldn't of waited until "all " the facts were in before I opened my mouth. Now, I have only myself to blame for jumping the gun.

It's a dark day at Rybka beach, people!  

sidserious-

Addendum:

Actually, if Strelka turns out not to be a Rybka clone I think that would be pretty funny after all. :-) :-) :-)
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2007-07-14 13:39
When this came out earlier I mentioned that if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck ... guess what it is very likely that it is a duck.  This guy is nothing more than a thief who has obviously spent a lot of time and effort disassebling Rybka 1.0 code.  As if that was not bad enough, he then claims that he has changed Fruit code to bitboard to get a performance increase of 2X as a starting block ... my ass.  If Fruit could get a 2X performance increase by a simple translation to bitboard I think you would have seen it in Toga and most likely Fabien would have done it himself in the commercial version of Fruit.  This person has managed to disassemble and copy a large part of Rybka code plain and simple.  Has nothing to do with Fruit ... he has simply copied and cloned Rybka 1.0 and he should be vilified for that.  He might have some supporters in the Russian forums that think it is cool to steal other people's hard work ... but you will also find people who think it is cool to steal or make money selling dope if you can get away with it.  Stealing other people's work and claiming it as your own is wrong ... plain and simple.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-14 14:19 Edited 2007-07-14 14:25
Dan Corbit is one of the most respected men in the Computer Science Chess engine community. If he says that Strelka is not by his study a clone-I will go along with what he is saying.

Vas, certainly didn't challenge his conclusions and he has had plenty of time to do so-and, that is important to note.

For my self, I will go the way of silence.

regards,

Robert
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) [kw] Date 2007-07-14 17:26
I have a lot of respect for Dan and I also went quiet when he mentioned that Strelka was not a clone.  But in this case I think Dan was assuming that the person involved was ethical.  Obviously since then a lot has changed and Osipov's latest response almost seems to ridicule how stupid everyone is in that he managed to pull a fast one over even the most respected people.  So I think Dan was wrong or at least got swindled into giving an all clear.  He obviously could not have imagined to what extent someone is willing to go to clone an engine.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-14 18:01
You see, you are getting information that I don't have access to. Are you sure this guy isn't just playing everybody against each other knowing fool well that there is no substance behind what he is saying. Look at for a moment from this point of view-if Strelka isn't a clone and he's pissed he's having his fun playing one against the other. Which ultimately doesn't make sense. One would have to be pretty screwed up to play that game.

Dan, didn't give an all clear, he stated that some parts of Strelka were borrowed but that the overall chess engine was not similar to Rybka. I believe. But, Vas ,  did not refute Dan on anything he stated which is paramount to giving the situation, as you would say, the clear. I cannot speculate on anything since I don't have any knowledge to consider but Vas  ultimately has the last word in this. That is why after Dan weighed in with his information and Vas did not refuted it, I am in no position to make any determination between the two, that's between those gentlemen-see what I mean.

Regards,

Robert
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) [nl] Date 2007-07-14 18:27
Does Dan have (parts of) the Rybka sourcecode?. If not it will be really hard to compare Rybka and Strelka, let alone come to a conclusion Strelka is 'original'...
Parent - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-14 19:21 Edited 2007-07-14 19:25
I would never-ever question Dan Corbits integrity! That is not up for discussion here or anywhere. That is why I have requested that a Committee be set up to establish a commission of peers to research matters of this nature. Note that I say peers because they are the folks that work with the source codes-not you nor me and that ends the speculation.
Parent - - By Arrière Pensée (Gold) Date 2007-07-14 18:21
This thing is far from over yet and, lot more facts need to come to surface-

I believe that there really is a need for a formal Commission needs to be convened - set up by the Computer Chess Community-to hold hearings on issues like this.

Otherwise, there is the risk that events, like this one,  can be repeated over and over again without resolution, which run the risk of  poisoning relationships among fellow computer chess community members.

regards,

Robert

Someone needs to take that step but it has to be someone like Dan, Uri, etc.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Strelka = Rybka 1.0
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