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- - Date 2009-08-19 02:28
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2009-08-18 09:43 Edited 2009-08-19 21:31
I will start with a thesis about Poisoned Pawn : Black has at least a draw in the e5 PP.

Who disagrees with me and why?.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2009-08-18 16:05
You presume black plays ... Ne5 variation? That one seems very drawish. ... Nfd7 also has a line or 2 to offer, but I believe white might still have resources to play for win.
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2009-08-18 17:38
I really meant all B97 10. e5 games (there might be one or two sidelines white still has some big winning chances, but most of the lines are draw at best for white)..
What Ne5 variation are you refering to?.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2009-08-19 08:31
Sorry, of course I meant Nd5, not Ne5 variation. My experience and analysis shows that if black plays Nfd7 white has quite good chances of winning, although I've been unable to find win for white in a one or 2 subvariations. If black chooses Nd5 as a reply to e5, this one looks to me as there is almost nothing for white. The third option, ... g5 looks murky, as Jeroen said. Hard to give any verdict.
But, all together, if there are no dramatical novelties in Nd5 variation, I conclude Poisssoned Pawn with e5 is draw.
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2009-08-19 10:29
Agree, Nfd7 is the worst continuation for black, but even there I think black (at least on playchess...) has countered all previously winning lines for white. g5 is totally ok for black, Nd5 is probably ok also, I'm still digging into it a bit.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2009-08-19 18:58
Nfd7 is a bit awkward, as it normally takes quite some time to untangle. In an OTB game I would not like to defend it as black. White always has some pressure and black needs to make precise moves.

Nd5 is very safe and if you know it well, it is probably the best choice against a strong opponent (OTB or even in correspondence chess).

g5 is murky, probably a draw with best play by both sides. Nepomniachtchi recently used it to beat Anand, who responded badly (he didn't seem to know the line). It gives nice practical chances in an OTB game, especially if white doesn't know it. Still, you must have a strong stomach having your king at d8 and a bad development, but if you know the lines well, this is no problem.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2009-08-19 19:06
Here is the Anand game:

[Event "CCM9 - GrenkeLeasing Rapid WCh"]
[Site "Mainz"]
[Date "2009.07.31"]
[Round "2.2"]
[White "Anand, Viswanathan"]
[Black "Nepomniachtchi, Ian"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B97"]
[WhiteElo "2783"]
[BlackElo "2628"]
[PlyCount "112"]
[EventDate "2009.??.??"]
[EventCountry "GER"]
[Source "Chess Tigers"]
[SourceDate "2009.01.01"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9. Rb1 Qa3 10. e5 h6 11. Bh4 dxe5 12. fxe5 g5 13. Bf2 Ng4 14. Bg3 Nd7 15. Be2 Ngxe5 16. O-O Bg7 17. Nxe6 fxe6 18. Ne4 Rf8 19. Bh5+ Ke7 20. Rb3 Rxf1+ 21. Kxf1 Nc4 22. Rxa3 Nxd2+ 23. Nxd2 Be5 24. Rf3 Bxg3 25. Rf7+ Kd6 26. hxg3 b5 27. Rh7 Bb7 28. Bf3 Rf8 29. Ke2 Bd5 30. Bxd5 exd5 31. Rxh6+ Rf6 32. Rh5 Re6+ 33. Kd1 g4 34. Nb3 Nf6 35. Rf5 Ne4 36. Kc1 Nc3 37. a3 Re3 38. Rf6+ Ke5 39. Rxa6 Rxg3 40. Nc5 Rxg2 41. Nd3+ Kd4 42. Ne1 Re2 43. Nd3 Rh2 44. Ne1 Ne4 45. Kb2 Rh1 46. Nd3 Nc3 47. a4 Nxa4+ 48. Ka3 Ra1+ 49. Kb4 Rb1+ 50. Ka3 Nc5 51. Nxc5 Kxc5 52. Rg6 Rg1 53. Kb3 g3 54. Rg4 g2 55. Kb2 b4 56. Rg5 Kd6 0-1
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2009-08-19 20:00
Game for replay:
Attachment: 1.aqs (96k)
Parent - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2009-08-19 20:47
wow, rybka gives an absolutely staggering edge to black at moderate depth. almost the full pawn.

rnb1kb1r/1p3pp1/p3pn1p/4P3/3N3B/q1N5/P1PQ2PP/1R2KB1R b Kkq - 0 12


[-0.86]  d=18  12...Nfd7 13.Be2 Be7 14.Bxe7 Qxe7 15.Nf3 Nc6 16.Ne4 O–O 17.Qc3 Qd8 18.O–O Qc7 19.Nd6 Ndxe5 20.Nxe5 Qxd6 21.Nxc6 Qxc6 22.Qxc6 bxc6 23.Rb6 c5 24.Bf3 Ra7 25.Rd1 Bd7 (0:03.19) 57627kN
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2009-08-20 06:03
13. Bf2 is pathetic. I think u r right. He dont know this line 13. ef6 is the best line here and Now black has to Draw at Best. I have done alot of analysis on it. u will find it on my books.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-08-19 02:28
Branch this to a new thread!  If people are awake, this should grow to 200 posts in no time. :-)  Of course, the people who are awake might not want to give away any secrets...
Parent - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2009-08-19 10:54
As the 'big guns' withhold from replying so far I think my thesis is at least in the right direction ;-)
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2009-08-19 08:53

> Who disagrees with me and why?.


You don't even know how to spell it, therefore you know nothing about the Poisoned Pawn.
Parent - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2009-08-19 10:21
Sorry about that, I just copy-pasted from the post I replied to.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2009-08-19 10:58
The fact that it is Poissoned hints at its chaotic nature. :-P
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2009-08-19 11:40
I suggest to rename the variation, as clearly the pawn on b2 is not 'poisoned' at all ;-)
Parent - - By Vempele (Silver) Date 2009-08-19 11:51 Edited 2009-08-19 12:14
How about Binomial Pawn?
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2009-08-19 18:51
OK, this is an interesting side subject within this thread: let's propose a new name for the Poisoned Pawn! Wasn't it Bronstein who tried it first? I am not sure, I always have been bad at historical chess facts, so please correct me if I am wrong.

My 2 cents: The Bronstein variation, or Bronstein's pawn grab.
Parent - By Eelco de Groot (***) Date 2009-08-19 20:31 Edited 2009-08-19 20:36
According to Wikipedia article on the variation, Bronstein was indeed one of the first people playing it. Later it was used by Fischer in the match for the World championshipship against Spassky in two of the games. But you already know all that Jeroen. If you play the system with Black, does it not follow that you don't believe the pawn is poisoned? Then I don't see why the name would have to be changed..

How about the Playchess Pawn Variation? A name reserved for the most played variation there perhaps in B96, as Playchess fashion goes, or the best line for Black in Poisoned Pawn computer games so far? What line would that be?

Eelco
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2009-08-20 06:07
I completely Disagree. I think what Tarrasch Said  years back is still right. Never capture the queen night pawn with your queen. If Black playing that at best only Draws ,its really poisoned.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2009-08-21 16:09
If Nd5 is a safe draw, the pawn on b2 can be easily taken and 6. Bg5 is not the best answer against the Najdorf. A forced draw as black is the proof that the line is sound and white has to do something else to keep winning chances.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2009-08-22 07:00
Correct. Its safe draw but what about players OTB that dont know how to answer it?. So for human players Bg5 is a good answer to najdorf. But may not for engines. If in a opening neither black nor white can win, then there is much scope of novelties. Once i saw eros winning as white against black in that line which u claim to be safe draw.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2009-08-22 09:55
If a black player in an OTB game goes for Nd5 or g5, it is much more likely that white is entering unknown territory, giving black a huge advantage and chances for a win. The Anand game effectively shows that. You presume that white players know everything you know, but I think it is the exact opposite: black players playing g5 or Nd5 will know what they are doing. And white will be facing a mine field. Not a nice situation with only 2 hours on the clock to figure it out.

As a matter of fact, I think that not many top GM's playing 6. Bg5 know about Playchess theory. It should rise in the future, but in 2009 the number is still quite small. Hence every player going for either Nd5 or g5 has a huge advantage in theoretical knowledge, even against a super GM. Once again: the Anand game clearly shows they are not up to date.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2009-08-22 11:18
Yes your reasoning is absolutely correct. I forgot the other face of the coin. Yes playing g5 or Nd5 Black allows White to come to his Territory . Yes actually i thought according to my point of view as while making books i have digged into it . ....may be no player visit Engine room ,probably.
Parent - - By GCP (***) Date 2009-08-29 15:22

>As a matter of fact, I think that not many top GM's playing 6. Bg5 know about Playchess theory. It should rise in the future, but in 2009 the
>number is still quite small. Hence every player going for either Nd5 or g5 has a huge advantage in theoretical knowledge, even against a super
>GM. Once again: the Anand game clearly shows they are not up to date.


I had quite a discussion in Mainz with Vasik and SMK about whether you really want to play this line when you're the (somewhat older) World Champion against a young up-and-coming talented player.

My idea was that you don't actually want to do this, because this a line where you HAVE to be up to date with theory, and knowing the theory is at least as important as your chess skills. So presumably, if you're the World Champion, you can overpower your opponents in much safer lines. Conversely, an up-and-coming talent that plays such a sharp line like this should be expected to know the latest theory very well. So by playing this line, you're taking an unnecessary risk.

IIRC, both Vasik and SMK disagreed with me, because Anand often plays this on both sides, and when you're the World Champion, you want to play your game and not adjust for your favorite line for (inferior) opponents.

I would say the eventual game proved my point, but I'm curious about your opinion here.
Parent - By Venator (Silver) Date 2009-08-29 16:07 Edited 2009-08-29 16:11
First of all, we should not forget this was 'just' a rapid game, with no elo or title involved. I am sure that Anand didn't want to reveil his true repertoire in a rapid game, hence his choice for a sharp line in a short game is understandable. Maybe he had some idea against Nfd7, we don't know.

The game just shows that he didn't know g5, or didn't give it much attention. If he only had taken a serious look at Nfd7, without paying any attention at Nd5 or g5, it is clear Anand had no idea about these lines and what mine fields were awaiting him. The problem is: we know these lines, but he probably did not.....

All in all I think that if you play 10.e5 in the Poisoned Pawn, you have to be up to date and know what you are doing. This line is far too complicated to trust your intuition and ability to 'figure it out behind the board'. Being up to date means knowing how to counter Nfd7, Nd5 and g5. Entering this line not being up to date is risky, perhaps even suicide. Or it will cost you a lot of time to select a safe line in which you are not worse.

I think Anand was sure he was entering a safe line, as he only gave attention to Nfd7, which in his opinion is probably 'the only logical move'. I am interested if Anand will continue playing 6. Bg5 vs the Najdorf as soon as he takes a deep look at Nd5 and g5. Meanwhile, I don't think he will try it in a serious tournament game.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2009-08-19 18:45
I think 'at least a draw' is a bit too optimistic. But IMO black is currently very much OK after 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 in the Najdorf, although many novelties will still come in the future, trying to tip the balance in white's favour.
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) Date 2009-08-20 05:58
There are a lot of losing lines as white in poison pawn that look totally innocuous even with big hardware.  For some reason white seems to be totally helpless even though optically he looks well developed and quite solid.  I think a lot of people are keeping the treacherous lines in wait to spring on someone who drank a few extra Red Bulls in a Freestyle and is feeling rather frisky.  Personally I wouldn't touch that opening as black as I spent several weeks looking into it, and although as white it seems that there is a draw somewhere, there are so many ways things can go terribly wrong that it simply is not worth it.
Parent - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2009-08-20 06:10
so how can rybka's evaluation be so misguided even at pretty high depth?? it seems extremely rare that she is inaccurate with an eval in a non-endgame situation.
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2009-08-20 06:21
There are a lot of losing lines as white in poison pawn that look totally innocuous even with big hardware
I think it should be black. Even Rybka says Nfd7 and we know already its the worst move at this position. There are chances For BLACK to go wrong. With a good updated book, Engine seems to support black.....suddenly just like lightening from the sky 1 or 2 sacs on e6 and f7 comes and suddenly eval changes. The characteristic of the opening is that all obvious looking moves leads to disaster for both black (like Nfd7)and white (like Bf7 played by anand),but black having more chances of going wrong if the player is not familiaragainst white. It needs correct defence and calculation of tactics to come back to the game,as he has to return the tempo that cost white development advantage. I personally admire the analysis done by  GM Eugeny Naer who is currently the strongest exponent now available who regularly play it OTB in GM level. I have included all his analysis in my coming book. I dont think many care my books now as now sedat has created a craze in many player for making books which makes me rethink while posting the book here.
Regards
Om Prakash
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2009-08-20 06:36
exactly how would you attack the position after Nfd7? why is black not safe after Be7 - O-O?
Parent - - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2009-08-20 10:38
I Am at work now, will lookup some lines when I'm at home (or maybe someone else could provide some lines)
Parent - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2009-08-20 17:15 Edited 2009-08-20 17:20
Like omprakash said below, which line are you referring to?. Can't seem to find a singe line with these move combinations...
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2009-08-20 15:55
Give the  Exact lines
Parent - - By yanquis1972 (****) Date 2009-08-26 02:29
i didnt know about white's Ne4! resource at the time i posted that.
Parent - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2009-08-26 05:12
thats also leads to draw with correct defence by black
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) Date 2009-08-20 06:55
My bad,  I meant to say "black" and not "white"
Parent - - By Master Om (Bronze) Date 2009-08-20 15:54
ya that is what i wanted to say. I remember u once showed poison pawn to some IM and after some moves which was getting a beating. Now he is convinced that playchess guys know more than Those OTB players in Poison Pawn. I have Remembered that and thats true for many top level players.
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) Date 2009-08-20 16:20
Actually it was Anand, and he couldn't understand why black had resigned the freestyle game where Dagh was playing as white under Flyingfatman (Nick's team).  In fact the game was totally lost in all variations, but it took big hardware to see it.  When we were  looking at this opening the days before that game, we found many such lines in many different positions ... it was actually quite amazing how helpless black was even though things looked very good for black.
Parent - - By 8lrr8 (***) Date 2009-08-21 03:22
i was told r3 can find this tactical shot in sufficient time.

the game in question occurred back when r3 didnt exist.  it was 2.3.2a that couldnt see it.
Parent - - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2009-08-22 19:20
I guess that rybka2.3.2a can also find it in sufficient time(I guess that if you give her a year to analyze she can find it)

Uri
Parent - - By 8lrr8 (***) Date 2009-08-23 00:30
after 30+ hrs (on a quad) 2.3.2a cant find it.

w/ r3 on an octal, i think it finds it in a few minutes.  perhaps someone can confirm this.
Parent - - By Mark (****) Date 2009-08-23 02:18
Exactly what position is being discussed?  I'd like to try out IDeA on it.  Thanks!
Parent - - By 8lrr8 (***) Date 2009-08-23 04:23
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl?pid=19749#pid19724

there are at least 3 pts of interest for your consideration:

1. can IDeA find 24. Bc7, and if so, how long does it take (state your hw)?
2. can r3 find 24. Bc7, and if so, how long does it take (state your hw)?
3. can r3 avoid black's losing move, whatever move that is?  it might come as early as 18 ... Qa5+, i dunno...
Parent - - By Mark (****) Date 2009-08-24 02:30
I've had IDeA running on this for ~12 hours so far.  It's only looked at Bc7 (eval = 0) for a couple minutes vs. 12 hours for Be5 (eval = 1.72).
Parent - - By 8lrr8 (***) Date 2009-08-24 03:57
what hw are u running?

how long does r3 take to find Bc7?
Parent - - By Mark (****) Date 2009-08-24 10:05
I'm running a standard Q6600 at 2.4GHz, but am only using 3 cores for IDeA.

Unassisted IDeA looked at Bc7 right away (don't have an exact time) but after 20 hours has only considered it a total of 4 positions vs. 20 hours and 4,000 positions for Be5.  Since the eval for Be5 (1.72) is so much better than Bc7 (0.00), no time is being spent on Bc7.
Parent - - By 8lrr8 (***) Date 2009-08-24 10:16
interesting.

if u force 24. Bc7, does IDeA see that black is lost?
Parent - By Mark (****) Date 2009-08-24 11:35
When I get home tonight, I'll mark Bc7 as good.  IDeA works best if you seed it with promising lines, but I was trying to test it in unassisted mode.  What would be better would be to move Bc7 and run in infinite analysis mode for an hour, then paste the line into IDeA.
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