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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Preparations for the match Rybka Junior :-)
- - By Hetman (*****) Date 2007-07-01 12:31
Hi,

It would be the match Rybka - CB, not versus Junior, which is one of its product, I think.
The match it is not the same as the tournament.
What the CB would do ? Will they analyse the Rybka's games to find weak points an prepare the special positions to win. It is probable, cb has many peoples working for it.
Rybka's team could do the same. It is a lot of work to do.

Is it not better to prepare the Rybka who will be playing a bit other way ? The same concerning Junior.
The history of championships matches shows that the winner was that who was able to add somthing to his play.

Regards
Hetman.
Parent - - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-07-02 13:31
It should also be noted that Junior is probably the only engine in existence that has an opening book author who might be able to compete with Jeroen in terms of specific preparation.  This is dangerous because I think that in spite of the fact that Rybka is a far stronger engine than Junior, Rybka also has more easily exploitable bugs in its play for an opening book author explicitly focusing on that route.
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-02 16:24

>It should also be noted that Junior is probably the only engine in existence that has an opening book author who might be able to compete with >Jeroen in terms of specific preparation.


Sandro Necchi of Shredder is also one of the best in the book preparation.....

A Rybka-Junior match is like this:
If 6 games will be played then Junior might be able to draw or even win the match.
If 12 games are played then Junior has very small chances for winning.
If 24 games are played(as Vas cleverly proposed) then Junior has no chance.

Of course all these with the Junior we know, since who knows if Amir and Shay would not create a Junior 11 which will be considerably stronger and reach the level of Rybka or even be better..... Difficult yes, very difficult yes, but not improbable!
Parent - - By Hetman (*****) Date 2007-07-02 19:50
Both sides will be working. It is the problem of time and money. Here CB has the advantage but it is not all.

Regards
Hetman
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-02 20:09

>Both sides will be working. It is the problem of time and money. Here CB has the advantage but it is not all.


I don't really understand what money has to do for if only 2 programmers are working for Junior and Vas on Rybka.
What more money would offer as an advantage?

I would understand more money as an advantage if Chessbase would hire 10 other programmers to help Amir and Shay to improve Junior and if they provided them with 50 computers and some other helpers to rapidly test beta versions of Junior.
But it's highly improbable this to happen and i'm not sure you mean this with money.

Also i disagree that Chessbase has an advantage since current situation is that Rybka is a LOT stronger, so obviously Rybka has the advantage....
Parent - - By Hetman (*****) Date 2007-07-03 17:14
Hi,
all things you mentioned are avaiable for money.
The play is going for big market and money.

Rgds
Hetman
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-07-03 18:53
Good thing we're not challenging Microsoft :)

Vas
Parent - - By Hetman (*****) Date 2007-07-04 05:36
Might be it would have been less dangerous ;-).

Is CB  designed for fun or for making money? It would be for CB the fight for the market. I would expect hard fight.
Match for someone could be fun for someone race.
Rgds
Hetman
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-07-05 12:11
Well, in all seriousness, money is a great tool for some tasks and worthless for others.

Vas
Parent - By Hetman (*****) Date 2007-07-05 17:00
That is true.

In our 'civilized' world money are important, I would say too much.
I hope that Rybka will win the match and it will show that money are not everything.
It will be not a walk as many people think. CB has much to loose.
Every cb copy protected programm cost about 40 euro :-).

Regards
Hetman
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-07-03 06:20
CB has more resources, but they don't always use them wisely. For instance, they give away the games played in the CB engine room to allow other teams to create better opening books, and they allow their best engine developer (i.e. Anthony) to pursue a worthless PhD instead of improving Zap for the betterment of mankind.

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By gala.martin (**) Date 2007-07-03 20:00
"They allow their best engine developer (i.e. Anthony) to pursue a worthless PhD instead of improving Zap for the betterment of mankind."

I cannot figure out if you are kidding or not...
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-07-03 21:36
For me, this is a joke, but I do know people who believe it to be true.
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-07-03 04:19
If he is one of the best in book preparation, how can you explain his failure to cover the most topical opening in top grandmaster chess (and in the Fritz-Junior match) before the crucial Rybka-Shredder game in this year's WCCC? Any competent amateur player who follows chess theory would have included that line.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-07-03 06:16 Edited 2007-07-03 06:21
If your statement doesn't motivate Sandro for the next Rybka-Shredder meeting, nothing will. :-)
Parent - - By George Tsavdaris (****) Date 2007-07-03 10:30
Yes that was very strange indeed.
But one bad moment can't erase all the previous many many good moments.....
Sandro gave to Shredder many many book wins in the past....
Parent - - By lkaufman (*****) Date 2007-07-03 14:34
Perhaps he excels at preparing for specific (predictible) opponents, but not at general preparation? I don't really know, as I was not active in computer chess during most of the years of his successes.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) [hu] Date 2007-07-03 18:51
Jeroen and Sandro have been at this for ages. I'm sure Sandro is working now to come up with something. He got busted up the last two times actually - Amsterdam and Paderborn.

Vas
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-07-03 21:39
Yes, he probably has a heavily used, life-size Jeroen dartboard...
Parent - - By ok373 (**) [il] Date 2007-07-03 11:47
If the game will be super tatical Rybka will lose:(
Parent - - By JMand (*) [be] Date 2007-07-04 07:20
Rybka can do tactics. Look at her last 3 games in WCCC (vs Diep, GridChess and Shredder).
Parent - - By Gaмßito (****) [cr] Date 2007-07-04 08:26 Edited 2007-07-04 08:29
Hi,

Of course. I do not understand why some people say that Rybka is weak in tactics.    
   
Rybka is tremendously strong in tactics, and can play really beauty and brilliant in many occasions, but it simply does not prefers to enter in tactical games, it is not their style. That is very different and it does not mean that it is weak in tactics.

Regards,
Gambito.
Parent - - By Jitugo (**) [de] Date 2007-07-04 09:51
Hi,

i think that rybkas preference not to initiate tactical slugfests is the key to her strength. Rybka attaches some kind of uncertainty calculation to positions and if there are a lot of pawn pushes to the seventh, hanging pieces and king weaknesses. She avoids them and retains her advantages with other means - she trades of more certainty with a slightly lower score. So what happens is the opponent often goes into a tactical super mess and rybka profits often from the resulting mess. I think this two dimensional eval _(uncertainty and classic evail) leads to better tactical play by rybka... but if some of the tactical messes turn out good (by pure chance) for her opponent everybody laudes his tactical abilites and disses rybkas tactical play. Also the tradeoff between certainty probabilities and eval centipawns is of course a complex topic

regards,

Jitugo
Parent - - By bedouin (**) [gb] Date 2007-07-04 11:17
It is subjective and misleading to suggest that rybka is weak tactically. She could not be on top of the rating lists and win all those tournaments if she is that weak. That must be some kind of unfounded rumour.
Parent - - By Hetman (*****) Date 2007-07-04 19:16
Of course that she has to be strong in tactics. Rybka is WCC champion but.. may be we would speak about Junior weak points to
make easier the match preparations.
Rgds
Hetman.
Parent - - By billyraybar (***) [us] Date 2007-07-05 02:14
I think the perception is based on Rybka's inability to solve some the the puzzles people post in here that require some deep tactics.
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) [us] Date 2007-07-05 21:34
I think it's far, far more the case that people notice this in lots of test games when testing for CCRL, CEGT, etc.--Rybka will demolish the opponents with very high scores, and then there will be one or two losses in less than 30 moves due to a devastating king attack, an attack for which most of the "sub-top" programs (i.e. Fritz, Zap, Hiarcs, etc.) would not fall.
Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / Preparations for the match Rybka Junior :-)

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