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Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / congratulations for vasik for winning the free style
- - By Uri Blass (*****) Date 2007-06-24 20:37
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-24 21:05
Dittos to that and thanks for your compliment on our play!
Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-06-24 23:27
It is true, Nelson, you play a wonderful game!


Parent - - By Kreuzfahrtschiff (***) Date 2007-06-24 21:16
yes, well done, ur advantage was the opening prep and good strategic knowledge

also i congrat cato, because he is unbeatable and plays the best strategy

i will try it next time again :)

Parent - By RFK (Gold) Date 2007-06-24 23:24
Congratulations to Vas and Iweta for playing a great tournament.

Best wishes,

Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-25 01:08
We're beatable.  Everybody's beatable.  In fact, in qualifiers Anson lost a dismal English game to Revelator (though truth be told the team was in shambles that round) in his Intagrand nick.  But Cato got sweet revenge later! 

Kreuz, I hate to tell you this, but I must.  Ten minutes before Cato's game against you, Anson's 500GB hard drive hooked up to his main quad crashed with a metallic clang.  Total loss.  This deprived him of a key computer in our setup as well as our latest opening book.    As if this wasn't enough, there followed more technical problems.  Somehow Anson reacted quickly and got the team playing at a much-impaired level.  It resulted in sluggish, haphazard opening play that cost us many minutes in wasted time.  Imagine, during your game, Anson was not only playing a formidable opponent with only a fraction of his regular resources, but loading Windows onto a computer and managing a series of technical crises!

That he remained unflappable and survived that round--and won!--is astounding.  A full report should eventually follow.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-25 01:16
LOL, loading windows onto a computer during the event. :-)
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-06-24 21:46
Congratualition to Iweta and Vas for her fine play in the 6th final. They can win, although Michal isn´t there!
Best wishes also to the Cato team. I´m very inpressed by their playing style. Chess at his best!
Parent - By Fulcrum2000 (****) Date 2007-06-24 22:47
Well done Rajlich team!. Congratulation to all finalists, I really liked following these high level games.  Next freestyle I will join, and become close to last probably ;)
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-24 23:37
Congrats to the winners and lets hope they get paid!

It will be interesting to see if Suj actually had two entries in the final although I don't see this as being a violation of the rules.

Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-25 00:44
If he had ten entries in the final it would be perfectly fair.  If you and I hooked up and started that Vegas strip club we have often talked about, and had ten strippers Freestyling their way into the finals, that would be even more fair.  And if we accomplished that I would invite Vas, Dagh, Jiri, Nick and all the other Freestyle luminaries to Vegas in a private jet and comp them the whole evening.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-25 01:09
Hey Nelson,

Congrats on a great freestyle performance. Your team is definitely better than I had thought possible. I'm still not sure what the secret sauce is. I guess its a combination of a great database and a very skilled search but I'm sure I'm still missing something.

As far as the Vegas club is concerned, I suspect if we had actually taken the plunge, we would have made so much money that we might never have heard of freestyle chess. There are not too many businesses where your employees, sorry independent contractors, pay for the honor of working for you.

Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-25 01:43
Well here's the secret.  Anson has to be one of the world's top centaurs, and his girlfriend Wing is a rabid competitor with a burning desire to win at all costs.  (I am not joking.)  Her assistance is invaluable.  Finally I work my ass off 365 days a year on computer chess, every spare moment, sadly neglecting our strip club business plan.  And even so there is so much room for improvement.  We nearly had our heads handed to us in the ninth round against Rentner.  Check out Anson's whimsical 2.Ne2 French caper, which caused Wing to nearly break up with him on the spot.  And in the eighth round we were on the ropes against Suj's Ultra-d nick, when we innocently played a mainline Sicilian against him (we didn't know it was Suj, and we didn't know we were facing 32 cores).  Foolish choice!  We still have some work to do if we are ever going to get to the top rung.  But we're fairly pleased with a tie for second place against such tough opponents.

The database: don't let that fire your imagination.  We have not yet had a single book win.  Not even close.  I've told you before, all a database can do in Freestyle is navigate you safely to the middle-game.  And only intense preparation and/or a woefully unprepared opponent can result in a book win.  I would say our opening play was only adequate in this finals. 
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-25 02:22
I wasn't really shocked when I heard that Ultra-D was another Suj entry. But in retrospect, I was a little disappointed by the game between Ultra-D and Mission Control. Rather than having Ultra-D hang its queen, it would have been much better to either have the two replay some famous historical game, or maybe to replay a recent game like Rybka-Shredder from beginning to end.

How much stronger do you think the 32-core machine was, relative to the 8-core machine? I'm thinking the speedup would be less than 2:1 but maybe the AMD machine scales better.

Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-25 11:21
It's really hard to say from our perspective, i.e. the receiving end.  Suffice to say we smothered Bjorn's octo (our favorite game of the match) but could do no better than draw against the 32s twice.  With proper centauring you can achieve parity with a 32's raw power but superiority is another matter.  It is scary to contemplate what a 32 might do when Rybka scales better than it does now.

One thing I noticed about Suj's entries was that his time management was curious--he left a lot of time on the clock.  Apparently the 32s get all the depth they need awfully quickly and don't need the extra time.
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-06-25 01:37
Honor above money! No word to Cato´s play? Sui´s B97 line blowed up in this final! That´s the very best! Only B lines, isn´t enough for the best tournament in the world!
Okay, let´s be serious! I hope, the money will come. If not, freestyle is dead! If it comes, there are also some serious clouds at the freestyle sky. I think, Arno wants to change something at the freestyle rules (directed by the sponsor).  In my opinion, the rules are best, but the marketing isn´t so good. But this isn´t the thing (only) from any marketing company, but the players! Some of them are not professional. Look to the last round. Everybody said their opinion in the chat, although Vas and Cato were playing. They also can look to it. And the chess community cries, because Kramnik or Topalov are cheating in Elista. Freestyle is not WCCC! We have the centaurs in freestyle. I´m shocked about this! Okay, if everybody thinks, freestyle is a picknick in the green, I accept this. But give me some reason, why anyone has to sponsor this party. Be professional! The play is better than from professionals, but the behaviour is like childs! If you don´t take yourself seriously, why should this do the audience? Okay, human chess is not so good as freestyle, but the chess players are all honorable. Are all the freestylers honorable? I´m not convinced!
PS: In an other thread, cameras for the freestylers are suggested. In my eyes, it´s normal and good. OTB players like it, when there is somewhere, who is interested. But freestylers only make jokes about it and behave herself like idiots!
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-25 02:04

I agree with you that its hard to see why these events are being sponsored. In the past PAL put the money up and nobody asked any questions, but I don't think they got much out of it. In the beginning, you might say they were paying to provide a forum for Hydra, but this can't be the rational for current events.

In my opinion, the way forward is to try to start major teams with major backers. There is already Team Rybka, which has dominated the event, and at one point there was a Team Hydra, which did well in the beginning. Why not a Team Chessbase, maybe a team Hiarcs, maybe teams from major chess clubs and federations, etc. Of course smaller teams (e.g. Dagh, Cato, Bjorn, etc) should continue to be encouraged to enter, but the events need more major teams to spread the word.

Another thing that really needs to be addressed is the cult of secrecy behind the makeup of many of the teams. This may be beneficial to the hidden teams, but it really hurts the overall effort. Nobody can really be expected to support teams that are nothing but a name. I think the time to reveal all should be before the final, rather than afterward.

I agree with you that the kibitzer analysis during the game is very unprofessional (and generally very low quality as well :-)).

Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-06-25 02:53
I agree with you that the kibitzer analysis during the game is very unprofessional (and generally very low quality as well ).
That´s right. But quality is here not the point!
I´m not sure, if I read right. Therefore here my opinion:
All teams have to qualifiy (this is very important; I don´t like events, where you always see the same)! Sure for the finals, but maybe also for the tournament. It must be an honor to belong to the 64 (or 128) of a freestyle tournament. And if you failed, you are out for the next (two?) years. Faults are:
-You give no interview to the audience if wished.
-You don´t play to the end of the tournament.
-You are doped ;-).
-Many other things.
It must be an event, where nobody talked so much about hardware. Hardware is natural! Human brain has to arise in the foreground. And when hardware (+engine) wins, it´s a sensation! Then we want to hear the whole story from the machine master; otherwise from the sophisticated centaur! Look to the America´s cup. Nobody is talking about the hardware (although she is so much expensiv), but about the helmsmen or the nations. There is a long way to go, but chess is so much better than sailing!
Parent - - By BigBen (****) Date 2007-06-25 09:28
Congrats to Vas and the other prize winners :)

Parent - - By stephenNJUKI (**) Date 2007-06-25 10:56
Will Vas now release 2.32b? ;-)
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-06-25 15:03
Thanks for all of the nice comments.

Indeed, there are some questions about how to best run these tournaments. Forcing teams to be more open is one idea which should be seriously considered.

Another idea would be a knockout format instead of a round-robin. This has some obvious advantages and disadvantages.

Parent - By Kapaun (****) Date 2007-06-25 15:33
The biggest disadvantage would be that most people wouldn't join the fun anymore. Paying 10 € for getting kicked in the first round? No Sir, not this guy here... :)
Parent - By billyraybar (***) Date 2007-06-25 16:01
I still like the idea of the tournament being open to all.  Forcing one to qualify to enter the tournament adds to the perception of chess being elitist. 
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-25 18:55
Churchill once said that the truth is so precious it must be protected by a bodyguard of lies.  I wouldn't go so far, but a bodyguard of secrecy is not altogether a bad thing.  Let's face it, Freestyle isn't a game, isn't a pleasant diversion--it is an all-out battle for supremacy.  It's Freestyle: no quarter given, none expected.  And that is why it is so much fun!

But in general I have to agree that you're right.  There is a hardware arms race going on right now that is requiring every serious contender to just about double their CPU strength every three months in order to just maintain parity.  The best way to abate this trend and get us onto a more sane competitive path is transparency because if you take away the element of surprise you tend to level the playing field, surprise being a well-known force-multiplier.

Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-06-27 13:30
It would also be perfectly reasonable to put some limitations on hardware. As with many things, there are pros and cons. Every sport has some limitations - baseball bats can't have corks, football players can't bring knives into the game, etc.

Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-27 14:26
It sounds reasonable but everybody would look for loopholes and I wouldn't put it past anyone to violate the spirit, if not the letter, of the rules.

For instance, you can put a limit on the number of cores.  OK, is that on one machine or can you use ten machines, and are there any restrictions on overclocking?  You can put a limit on the number of machines.  OK, can you cluster a large number of machines and do the machines comprising the cluster count in the total?  What if one of the machines is a university supercomputer?  And that's just off the top of my head.  Others, more clever than me, could come up with devious schemes of their own.

Then there is enforcement.  How?  Do we use the honor system?  With prize money and substantial ego-gratification involved it has to be assumed that a lot of folks would be inclined toward banditry and lawlessness because there are no enforceable deterrents or consequences.  Under those circumstances a lot of people assume "anything goes".  I might add that the word "freestyle" encourages that thinking.

Finally there is the continual evolution of computer technology.  Any hardware rules we set today might be quaint a  year from now.  Some fair and knowledgeable entity would have to continually tweak the limitations.  But who, and on what basis?  The only change I've seen lately is the "qualifiers don't count in finals seeding" rule, which is patent nonsense, and suggestions that we change chess scoring to soccer or hockey rules.  With such things floating around what are we to think?  And who other than the players themselves would really be qualified to know what was a fair or stupid rule?
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-06-27 14:39
The question of how to specify the limitations is not that hard. A few experts sit down, formulate the rules, and periodically adjust them. Every sport deals with some set of rules which constantly need tweaking.

Enforcing it would have to go hand in hand with opening up the teams and eliminating the current secrecy. If every team had to have a web cam on site (for example), then cheating would at least become quite complex.

Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-27 17:18
Sounds good again, but who are the experts?  Wouldn't you call Arno an expert?  I would.  And wasn't he the main proponent of the screwball scoring system?  (No offense intended; we all have crazy ideas sometimes.)

Web cam on my site would feature me (in no particular order) taking a nap on the couch, lighting up a fat cigar, kicking my feet up onto my desk, shooing the cat off my keyboard, slurping from a can of Diet Dr. Pepper, etc. 
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-27 18:13
What I'd like to see is maybe a panel of five hammering out rules.  One representing the hosting server (otherwise things will be proposed that can't be done), one titled player with Freestyle finalist and ideally tournament arbiter/organizer experience, and maybe a rotating group of three elite players, at least two of whom would need to be hardware specialists and all three of whom had led a team into the money slots at least once in the past year (otherwise they lose their seat on the panel).  Finally the four non-server panelists would need to represent different countries. 

Sounds awfully formal but you know, we can either stay as we are or we can try to lay the groundwork for this to become much more popular and interesting to non-participants.
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-06-29 13:41
Yes, this is an interesting idea. Another idea is to find one respected and knowledgeable person who is neutral to handle the rules.

In general, though, the various new rule proposals seem to be more bad than good. Maybe we should just leave things as they are :)

Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-29 14:33
Yeah, probably.  If there were big-time commercial sponsors, maybe 100x more money at stake and potential media interest...then you'd need a controlling body like that.  But as we currently exist there just isn't enough juice to establish enduring bureaucratic institutions.  Incidentally having one unaccountable person as tournament dictator making unilateral decrees doesn't appeal to me any more than it would to you.  You'd have to have a panel with articulate and active individuals representing a range of interests and skills working in the public interest.  How they would work together to propose, debate and adopt/reject ideas would have to be left up to them.
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-07-01 15:50
Yes, this is probably true. I'll be happy if we can just keep things as they are :)

Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-27 21:01
Did you ever see the movie Rollerball (1975 version)?
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-06-27 22:13
No rules. But this was no good SF. There were no books and the complete 13th century was lost by the central fluid computer, who has to know it.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-28 04:42
It's actually more of a negative utopia genre than science fiction. I thought it was a really good movie :-)
Parent - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2007-06-28 06:26
Okay, I like this movie too, but this wasn´t a negative utopia genre. You have a lonely (positive) hero (although he is a team player) and he will crush them all (typical Hollywood)!
Few days ago in german tv I see really negative utopia (transmit time after midnight). Title: The unnecessary! Place: Germany. Time: 2030 (I believe). The story: Big unemployment in Germany. There was a politican decision (in consulting with the big companies), that there is not enough work for all, but the unemployed will be provided. But: Providing becomes less and young german people want to work in China or India (there is work!) as waiter or maid (the great dream of the femine hero in this film), but Germany don´t let them go so easyly. Germany is a state under control. You have to qualify yourself for the departure. This means, you have to betray someone, if you want to go. Noone knows, if you ever can go.
This movie is really dark. It´s a movie from the young generation in Germany. When I see this movie, I was really shocked. Not because I believe the story, but that our next generation can make such a movie.
But: They have a much better feeling for this.
PS: Sorry, but you will never see this interesting movie. When the story becomes true, you will see a much better Holliwood movie (but James Caan will be much to old for this story).
Parent - - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-06-29 13:44
I haven't seen this. But, speaking of cool movies, the best "futuristic-game" movie ever was "Blood of Heroes". Awesome would be a huge understatement :)

Parent - By DanielRJ (**) Date 2007-06-29 14:53
Rollerball (1975 film)
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-29 16:47
I will see "Blood of Heroes". You should see Rollerball.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2007-06-29 14:07
I did.  One of the very best movies of the 1970s.  A profoundly conservative movie in its own way, consider the themes: the individual triumphing over the collective, decadent elites managing the masses, delegation of cultural memory to a machine and a faceless bureaucracy, the commoditization of life, bloody spectacles as a means of social control.  You could write a really meaty thesis on this movie and I'm sure some people have.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2007-06-29 16:50
I was in high school when I saw the movie. I thought it was awesome. My date thought it was sickening :-)
Parent - By Vasik Rajlich (Silver) Date 2007-07-01 15:51
Ok, now you've sold me on it :)

Up Topic Rybka Support & Discussion / Rybka Discussion / congratulations for vasik for winning the free style

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