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- - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-07-08 10:56 Edited 2009-07-08 11:05
Tonight I accepted the challenge from Kosmodrom first issued here. The final score was +11/=10/-1 or 16-6 in my favor. Here are the games.

In the beginning of the match I realized that Kosmodrom did not bring his best "MyBook" but instead had attempted to prepare a "manual" book that played uncommon moves and tried to beat me by forcing me out of book very early. I had expected him to try something like this but it was clear he had done his research on which lines my book played and did not play, however his plan did not work. He soon changed his book to play more common moves(probably the updated "MyBook") and take me on directly challenging "Amazing 1.1" in the Sicilian, this also did not work. I was very honored to play a great book author like Kosmodrom and he was very pleasant and gracious in defeat. I am happy that he carried out his challenge and actually did show to play the match. The match was originally planned for 20 games at 3mins but ended with 22 games at 3mins. Kosmodrom wished to play more games at the end but my time did not allow it.

To Kosmodrom,
Yuri it was a great honor to play you. I know you wish an immediate rematch after you update or change your book but I am not able to update as much or often as you. In a day to day battle you would eventually succeed me and I acknowledge that fact. You are a great book author and I am very thankful for the games and for the great battle we had this day July 8th 2009.  I will possibly consider a re-match but it will not be anytime soon as I have other work and plans for the next few weeks.
Parent - - By Sunny (***) Date 2009-07-08 13:02
Great work Bobby.....:). This was an expected result.
Parent - - By jeandis (***) Date 2009-07-08 13:33
Hi Bobby,

I told you that you will be the winner! Kosmodrom updated his book only adding some new games played in playchess. Making book and updating book need more studies and analyses, here are the difficulties to make really a good book.
Parent - - By ForrestGump (***) Date 2009-07-08 17:32 Edited 2009-07-08 17:47

>>Kosmodrom updated his book only adding some new games played in playchess. Making book and updating book need more studies and analyses, here are the difficulties to make really a good book.


Btw., Jeandis, did you read this text before? :-)

By Bobby C:

>>In the beginning of the match I realized that Kosmodrom did not bring his best "MyBook" but instead had attempted to prepare a "manual" book that played uncommon moves and tried to beat me by forcing me out of book very early.


Sorry Jeandis, but I think you missed the topic a bit. ;-)

>>Making book and updating book need more studies and analyses


Hmm, it would be good to see this :-) :

http://www.sedatchess.com/scct4.html

It is evident that Yuriy is a book maker who knows how to make a very good opening book. ;-)

Also, I think that something faster hardware, at only 3+0, may somewhat affect on the final result.

Best regards
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-07-08 20:38

> Also, I think that something faster hardware, at only 3+0, may somewhat affect on the final result.


I think I need to remind you of your comrade's fatal words. He said this and I quote...

"In a match of books quickly noticeably at whom the book is better. In a match of books CPU means a little. BobbyC, wish to play with me a match? I am ready! I am ready to play always against any contender. It has finished the book or not - has no value. I am warrior. All the Russian players - warriors. We are always ready to battle, against any contender!" - Kosmodrom 2009-06-27
Parent - By ForrestGump (***) Date 2009-07-08 22:17 Edited 2009-07-08 22:24
By Bobby C:

>>I think I need to remind you of your comrade's fatal words. He said this and I quote...


As First. Neither you nor he not "my comrades". (At least not in that way that you presented to...)

There is no need to remind me :-) , because I very well know what he wrote, but I do not agree with this (even then), and I think it's the wrong attitude.(From him)

Because if someone has a 4X200 Mhz (or perhaps 4x400Mhz) MHz faster hardware, of course, that this will affect on the final result at just 3+0, but his main problem was that, which is played with a "book of surprises" ;-) , and not with his best book, and I have no idea why it was done, but obviously it was a wrong strategy.

By vermillion:

>>Looking forward to the re-match. I want to see how book authors adapt their books. I am sure the re-match will be much closer.


I agree, but both should play with his best books, and (for example) the tempo of the game could be a little slower, for example, 10 min. for the game, or something similar... Then we could to see an interesting match, I suppose...  
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-07-08 20:47
Thanks Jeandis, some of what Forest said above is right. Kosmodrom at first tried to use a "manual" book with white but his play with black and later on white was identical to what I would expect from an updated "MyBook 15". The sour attitude of Forest is obviously because Kosmodrom is his hero and he wanted Kosmodrom to win, this did not happen so he get's sour with you. Ignore the haters and rejoice, I put our team on top :)
Parent - - By jeandis (***) Date 2009-07-08 21:09
yes Bobby, I imagine that. People defends always his hero. May be Forrestgump did not understand well what I wrote. I forgive him. It is hard to do a good book, you need hours and hours in front of the computer and analyse some variantes with chessbase and the engine rybka turned on looking the best move. Nevertheless I wish to Kosmodrom a success making book.
Parent - - By ForrestGump (***) Date 2009-07-08 23:37 Edited 2009-07-09 00:02
By Jeandis:

>>People defends always his hero.


Also, this is totally wrong, because no one here is not my hero, or anything like that, because (for example) my private Corr. book, easily wins against all of these public books...

>>May be Forrestgump did not understand well what I wrote.


No :-), all I was very well understood :-) , therefore I was responded with a link, that proves that you have not been right. ;-)

But, for example, and "on the other hand" :-) , this was a typical example of bias. ;-)

By Jeandis:
Hi Bobby,

I told you that you will be the winner! Cosmodrome updated his book only adding some new games played in playchess. Making book and updating book need more studies and analyzes, here are the difficulties to make a really good book.

Btw., I have no heroes here, but it seems that you have his hero... LOL! ;-)

Best regards.
Parent - - By jeandis (***) Date 2009-07-09 00:11
without commentary my friend. All people here is as a great family and between family there is not fight.
Parent - By ForrestGump (***) Date 2009-07-09 00:21 Edited 2009-07-09 00:31
 
Not that there is no fight, just the facts we have found. :-) (and that facts were not going to favor what you are you and Bobby were written... ;-) ) [btw.: No one here is not my hero :-) , except mister Rajlich, but that's a one another story ;-) ]
Parent - By ForrestGump (***) Date 2009-07-08 22:40 Edited 2009-07-08 23:10
Bobby C:
It seems that you had a very bad grade in history ;-) (Sunny also... ;-) ) , because the Croatia was part of the former Yugoslavia, and not part of the former USSR.:-D  Ha-ha, LOL! :-D (Croatia does not have anything to do with Russia, etc...)
Why would anyone here was my hero book maker? Nonsense....
Maybe you are a very good book maker (or very good in taking a some good lines from the private books that you have been tested ;-) ), but some things you understand totally incorrectly. (and it seems, your banned friend Brandon also... ;-) )
Parent - - By Bouddha (****) Date 2009-07-08 14:34
which book did you use ?
Parent - By Sunny (***) Date 2009-07-08 15:15
Amazing 1.1
Parent - By vermillion (**) Date 2009-07-08 16:11
Looking forward to the re-match. I want to see how book authors adapt their books. I am sure the re-match will be much closer.
Parent - By Uly (Gold) Date 2009-07-08 16:39
Good job Bobby!
Parent - By keoki010 (Silver) Date 2009-07-08 18:41
Good job!  Especially figuring out that durn time thing! I am going to have to make an excel spreadsheet to keep track of it. It's confusing to say the least! :red:
Parent - By Edmond (**) Date 2009-07-08 18:43
congratulations Bobby C.
Parent - - By Stefan S. (*) Date 2009-07-08 19:12
  Hi Bobby,
What was exactly your hardware?
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-07-08 20:41
I used a Q9650 @4.2ghz. I was told that Kosmodrom has a Q6600 @ 4.0ghz but the playchess software showed his Q6600 at 3.1ghz. During the match the software was reporting my average kn/s at about 315 and his at about 225. I had about a 80-100kn/s speed advantage but if you look at the games it did not matter. Only about once or twice did his book have me in a unfavorable position after about the 15th move or so.
Parent - - By kosmodrom (***) Date 2009-07-09 12:10
Considering games, we see, that victory Bobby C has gained due to overweight in CPU (315-225). Really, CPU has not crucial importance. In game on playchess matters:
1. Engine-30% (Rybka3 at everything, it it is possible to not consider)
2. CPU-30 %
3. Book-20 %
4. TBS-15  %
5. Options GUI-5 %
I counted on the book, but book Bobby C has appeared is good! At the same time, I already during a match have corrected the book. It is very a pity, that Bobby C did not continue a match. I hope for a new match. I hope, that Sunny with me will play a match.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-07-09 13:16
Now you make excuses for your defeat. You said when you made your challenge that CPU did not mean much. Now you suffered a huge defeat and you blame it on a minor difference in CPU power. Look at the games and you can see that your book was severely outmatched. You brought a rock to a gun fight and that was obvious. When Sunny defeats you with similar hardware you will have no excuses left. Also during the match you changed books several times when I never changed books. Just the facts :)
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-07-09 13:47
Easy, now.  Don't forget the measure you are using to calculate book effectiveness is game end-results, and most likely a significant part of each game was not played in book.  That being the case, Kosmo's remarks are not completely ridiculous.  Or more specifically they cannot be dismissed out of hand without closer examination.

Here's the problem: the use of end-results is the easiest and most practical measure available.  But is it the best or only measure?
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-09 17:14
As you are well aware, when you are playing one engine against itself, CPU speed is much more important. This is because the engine doesn't fool itself very often, and with one engine searching almost 50% more nodes, you would expect a lobsided result. If you are just going to look at the end result, it should be computed as an Elo, and then the Elo difference from Rybka 3 vs Rybka 3 with the given speed difference should be subtracted.

I'm too lazy to do the math but I suspect this will make up about half of the difference...
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-07-09 17:46
If you read below I guess the obvious conclusion is that neither side is prepared to listen to reason or be civil.
Parent - - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-09 17:56
That's too bad. I remember a number of years ago, I played a number of long Playchess matches against Sam Wong (CaligulaOfRome) where I was using F7 and I think he was using S7.04. In the first match, he was unprepared for my lines, and I was beating him so badly that we didn't run the full 100 games. Of course this didn't last, and Sam pulled ahead over time. He got his ultimate revenge in JabbaTheHurt's Xmas tournament, where we played a long book line where I came out a piece down! :-D
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-07-09 18:09
Ah yes, those were the days when having a million engine games was considered a lot and opening book theory was in a primitive stage.  Things haven't changed all that much, though; your lines are still fairly uncommon.  There are 40-50x more 1.e4 games out there than 1.b3.  Whatever happened to Sam, anyway?  He was another colorful character.  Did Stickles' antics drive him mad or was there something else?
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2009-07-09 18:25
No, he got along fine with Richard. The kibitzing drove him crazy and he got kicked out for a while for insulting Eros (this was back before auto-kibitzers of course). He was also disappointed when the number of competitive engines decreased to unity.

If I were as competitive with respect to Freestyle as you are, I would buy him a quad and have him do preparation for me. He was very good at it.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-07-09 18:27

> that neither side is prepared to listen to reason or be civil.


Hey! What have I done? I thought I was being nice to him, I think when you read my future comments you will see that I am doing good playing nice and reasonable.
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-07-09 20:02
Look back at your reply to him and tell me if your response isn't a bit inflammatory (never mind its accuracy):

"...your defeat....you suffered a huge defeat....your book was severely outmatched. You brought a rock to a gun fight and that was obvious. When Sunny defeats you..."

That's hitting him on the head with a mallet, isn't it?
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-07-09 18:21

> That being the case, Kosmo's remarks are not completely ridiculous.  Or more specifically they cannot be dismissed out of hand without closer examination.


His statements about him losing due to CPU are ridicuals because he knew my hardware entering the challenge and quoted "CPU means little". I know better that is why I only agreed to play against 3.6ghz Nehalem or weaker hardware which would be only slightly faster then my Q9650. Kosmodrom went into battle very bravely but I think he prepared wrong. I think Kosmodrom is a great book author and a great person, his Russian to English translation might at times make him seem cocky but I feel he has good sportsmanship.

I am going to address this a bit more to him but he wants a quick re-match. I am not against a re-match but if the #1 boxer knocks out the #3 boxer in the first round an immediate re-match does not happen. I want him to challenge Sunny and then I also would like some time off, I waited for him to take his vacation and he can wait on me. I think getting into a day to day battle where each opponent is constantly updating or changing books to play offbeat lines like his 1.d4 2.a3 is a bit silly. I would rather him take me on directly in the more common lines of today but if he wishes to play things like 1.d4 2.a3 I can surely invent my own book to play offbeat things as well.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-07-09 20:00
Well, self-evidently if an book author chooses such a line he doesn't want to be in book very long.  And if he has inferior hardware, getting out of book early in an engine match between two identical engines is suicide.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-07-09 20:25

> And if he has inferior hardware


I do not believe he "has" inferior hardware. He did use slightly inferior hardware for our match but I believe this was intentional. I have been reading some things at his Russian forum, this guy Yuri is a "sly fox" and apparently is trying his best to limit everyone in the world except Russians. To me making a book was a learning project, to him it must be life. To me this was a fun experiment and to him it seems a humiliating defeat, if I had lost there would not have been excuses and probably not a rematch. I do not consider myself the "best ever" or the "champion" all I have done is make one good book that has done well earning the top spot but this is very likely very temporary and short lived.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-07-09 20:59
I think you missed my point.  If he is deliberately trying to get out of book with weird lines that's fine, but you need hardware to back up that approach.  I'm not criticizing you, I'm criticizing him for bad strategy.
Parent - - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-07-09 21:23

> I'm not criticizing you


Oh I know your not. With all the advice you have given me in the past I do not think I could be offended even if you did criticize me :)
Parent - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-07-09 22:30
In that case let me cuff your ear and muss up your hair.
Parent - - By ForrestGump (***) Date 2009-07-09 14:21 Edited 2009-07-09 14:32

>>I used a Q9650 @4.2ghz. I was told that Kosmodrom has a Q6600 @ 4.0ghz but the playchess software showed his Q6600 at 3.1ghz. During the match the software was reporting my average kn/s at about 315 and his at about 225. I had about a 80-100kn/s speed advantage....


Hmm, as a Corr. player, I am not familiar with chess on the Playchess, but as I know, there is about 30% speed advantage in hardware, a very big advantage, and this is not no way it could be treated as "a minor difference in CPU power." ;-)  (if someone wants to be honest and fair in his statement, of course...)

But of course, and obviously, Yuriy was wrong, when he was considered that this will not affected on the final result.
Obviously, they should to play a re-match to introduce some more fair rules... Good luck to them both for a re-match... (and we the viewers, we will expect a one much more interesting match...)
Parent - - By Sunny (***) Date 2009-07-09 17:03

> if someone wants to be honest and fair in his statement, of course...)


Forestgump

If you are saying Bobby was unfair about the hardware declaration, he was not. I told him about the processor sped of Yuri. That declaration was based on last games played against Yuri. 3.6 and 4 Ghz. Now 3.1 Ghz, only Yuri can explain that.

> re-match to introduce some more fair rules


Why are you in favour of re-match. Only you are in fabour of rematch no one else. Too much favourish toward one player. No one is fool here and don't say you are not favouring Yuri. He Challenged me and Bobby and he got defeated by Bobby and I am waiting for my friend to come back from tour as he have better system than me and also better internet connection what I have. I will play Yuri not matter what the result is and will not change the book as Yuri did, which was against the Rules of the Tourney. He should have abid by the rules, but he didn't and I know he will be abid by rule like you.

Don't try to be extra smart. GROW UP BABY. ITS YOU WHO REQUIRE SOME MATURITY AND NOT ME OR ANY ONE ELSE HERE. Now I have a faintest of idea who are you, forestgump. You can only shout and can do nothing like what you did previously.

Bobby did every thing right, declared hardware, declared his book and even the book was tested by Sedat, Challenged Yuri as per Yuri's convenience (Even though Yuri said he is out of town, his Forum suggested he was there and posted on comments on regular basis).

I congrate Bobby on Kicking butts of Russian and I really want him to Kick the Butts of this Croats, even harder and Hardest.
Parent - By vermillion (**) Date 2009-07-09 18:36

>I am waiting for my friend to come back from tour as he have better system than me


Why do you need a speed advantage? Your system is equivalent to Yuri's system (I've checked Sedat's benchmarks).
Parent - - By ForrestGump (***) Date 2009-07-09 20:53 Edited 2009-07-09 21:27

>> If you are saying Bobby was unfair about the hardware declaration, he was not.


Wrong, I have not been told that Bobby was unfair, but that the cosmodrome was handicapped with slower hardware, so this match was not very interesting (for us viewers), without uncertainty and with a lower quality of games.

>>Why are you in favour of re-match.


Because I want to find out who currently has a better book, and we can find out it, only if both of them play with the ~same hardware. (+/- 4X100/200Mhz)

>> Do not try to be extra smart. etc...etc...(censored a lot of nonsense...)


I do not understand why you behave so arrogant and hostile towards me, and why you disgrace yourself in this forum...

>>GROW UP BABY. ITS YOU WHO REQUIRE SOME MATURITY AND NOT ME OR ANY ONE ELSE HERE.


I am in my country, was survived bloody war and devastation, and therefore, you have no right to give me lessons in anything related to the life and survival... (or anything about maturity, etc...)

>>I congrate Bobby on Kicking butts of Russian and I really want him to Kick the Butts of this Croats, even harder and Hardest.


It is obvious that you are biased (unlike me), and now you are fully revealed in this, also, here you show your bad temper, and the hatred directed towards to my country (Croatia), that was not nice or decent from you.

Btw., I have a lot of good friends in India, but I think that you do not deserve to be on that list.
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-07-09 21:08

> Because I want to find out who currently has a better book, and we can find out it, only if both of them play with the ~same hardware. (+/-100Mhz)


This match was apparently not a match of "books" but a match of the human mind to prepare for your opponent. He could have brought stronger hardware, it has been said he was very capable of doing so. He brought what he brought for his own reasons and it led to him losing the match and also giving him an excuse. I would have let him use about as strong of a hardware margin against me but the match would have still ended with my victory. He might have won some of his 1.d4 2.a3 games as I was not prepared for that but he would have lost the majority of the Semi Slav games and he only had the advantage against my Sicilian one time which my book then adapted to that loss and bounced back with even stronger games. It is sad what he did because it did not even show the beginning of the best of my book, had I lost more games the book would have played other strong lines. Next time we will both prepare differently and have a different match, I wonder what would happen to him if I prepared something weird like 1.d4 2.a3 or whatever?
Parent - By Bobby C (****) Date 2009-07-09 18:23

> there is about 30% speed advantage in hardware, a very big advantage,


Hardware experts will tell you that you will only gain about a 15-20 elo advantage with 30%. Every doubling of speed yields ~ 75 elo as I have been told. The result of our match I gained almost 100 elo and I think a 16-6 score against equally rated players also yields a much higher advantage then 15-20 elo.
Parent - - By kosmodrom (***) Date 2009-07-09 16:30
Bobby C, download  - games and you will see games:
1. I did not change the book, I used one book, the name yet have not thought up, refers to - "Book"
2. At me was much disconnect, after disconnect Rybka quickly does the weak course influencing result of game
3. After the book in games there was an equal position, in the further yours CPU has won.
It is time to finish in conversation about CPU. Bobby C, you have burst into tears, what at you weak CPU- http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforum/topic_show.pl? tid=11455; pg=2
" If you have no more then a 3.6ghz Nehalem (4 Cores) then I accept your challenge, I am running Q9650 4.2ghz which is slightly slower then 3.6ghz Nehalem but I can give you a small speed avantage. We can meet on playchess for 20 games at 3mins. My playchess names are " PortCitySlim "and" Megatron81 " but I have not been to playchess in about 2 weeks. "
That to encourage you I has told, that CPU means a little. It is valid so, if the book weak, against Fill Harris at me overweight in the account. But your book has appeared strong, and for me it was a surprise. In a following match I shall know it. Now you have won a match. I am assured, that more you will not play with me a match. As well as will not play Sunny. Not everyone can be brave. I shall be surprised, if you (or Sunny) will agree to play.
Parent - - By Sunny (***) Date 2009-07-09 17:09

> As well as will not play Sunny. Not everyone can be brave. I shall be surprised, if you (or Sunny) will agree to play.


Stop try to be too brave, which you are not. You and your team mate (forestgump) trying to be extra smart here. I can post and declare how you make books and how you defends your opening. I have analysed evey book you made, evey book like you analysed mine books. If you can kill or win Y2.4V1.2, I assure I wil give what ever I have else keep your's and forestgump face into heap of garbage and gutter.
Parent - - By ForrestGump (***) Date 2009-07-09 17:37 Edited 2009-07-09 17:56

>>You and your team mate (forestgump)


Once again, "the best Nonsense of the year!" :-( (ooops, you did it again... ;-) )
Sunny, please, can your brain but once understood, that I am not part of any team here? (Look at my posts above)
I live in Croatia and not in Russia, if you want to check this, ask the administrators for the origin (or source) of my IP. (Optima Telekom->Croatia !!!!)

Please, stop blame me (or accusing, with such nonsense) for something with which I do not have any connections! OK? (or I ask too much from you...)
Thanks!!
Parent - - By jeandis (***) Date 2009-07-09 17:54
Tito general is annoyed?
Parent - By ForrestGump (***) Date 2009-07-09 18:07 Edited 2009-07-09 18:50
You know, I have been at least hundred times wrote that I am not in anybody's team, or I would not want to be, but he constantly write to the same nonsense and trying to provoke me... Really, I do not know, what is his problem.
Parent - - By Nelson Hernandez (Gold) Date 2009-07-09 18:02 Edited 2009-07-09 18:04
Yes, and apart from that Croatia is not aligned with Russia.  It's Serbia that is friendly with Russia!  Remember that little misunderstanding back in 1914 started as a result of various alliances that you historical illiterates are obviously not familiar with!

By the way, I am NOT aligned with Kosmo or ForrestGump!  I deny it!
Parent - By ForrestGump (***) Date 2009-07-09 18:27 Edited 2009-07-09 18:55
Thanks Nelson! (Of course, as (almost ;-) ) usual, you are right :-) ) Finally appears someone, who had a positive assessment of the history and geography. ;-) (and who is able to understand reality and facts...)

From almost every of your post, I can conclude that you are very intelligent and educated, I am happy there are such people on the forums...

Best regards! (With great respect to you...)
Parent - - By kosmodrom (***) Date 2009-07-09 18:33 Edited 2009-07-09 18:36
Bobby C, Sunny if you are men, you will play with me. You men? You will play with me, will not refuse the words?
Further... ForrestGump - the decent person, such a little. Personally I am not familiar with it. It from Ховатии? Croatia -the friend to Russia! (England - Croatia 2-3!!!! Gallant!!!) Serbia - the friend to Russia! I very much regret, that antiRussian president Boris Yeltsin has not sent an army when NATO has attacked Serbia in 1999г. If Putin or Medvedev will send armies - they will be supported with people! I shall enter the name the volunteer though I for a long time served in army. If Putin or Medvedev will sell to the country which the NATO is going to attack, rocket complexes С-300 any self-years of NATO will not dare to fly.
Chess players! We have nothing to divide! Let's play a chess! Gens una sumus! Bobby C, Sunny - accept my call!
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