Topic The Rybka Lounge / Correspondence Chess / Relay Chess: H1N1 Junkies Vs. NATIONAL12 & Vempele 1/2-1/2
I played as many of the lines to the bitter end that I could. No luck for me finding a winning line after Nc3, I am ready for the draw too. Can you play one of your moves for move 36 and offer the conditional to move 38 and then offer the draw? That might sound weird, lol . Nevermind, I am silly, lol, you can offer the draw now for your move....
I almost played Nc3, but was running out of time. I came close to moving it, knowing that it was drawn but just hoping. I crammed my brain too much in 24 hours. At the end it was just a coin flip. After we get the draw agreed I would like to do some open analysis on those move, 27.Kd3 and 35.Nc3. It sucks you were hoping for Nc3(I wish I would have played it), because I guess I just felt better leaving the game drawn after Ng1 but I did not think it was an inferior move. I really really wanted a Bishop+Knight vs Rook+Pawn endgame, and that is what I got in the end, too bad they were all draws by the method I got there with.
Here is what I think was going on after 35.Nc3 Kf8. This is kind of a work around, there are many moves where both sides have several choices.
1. = (0.00): 36.Kd3 h6 37.Ne4 Rd5 38.Bc3 Re5 39.a5 Kg8 40.g4 Kh7 41.Nf5 Rxe4 42.Kxe4 Bxc3 43.Nxe7 Kg7 44.Nd5 Bxa5 45.e7 Kf7 46.Ke5 f3 47.Kd6 f2
2. = (0.00): 36.h4 h6 37.Nce2 Re4 38.Kd3 Re5 39.Kc4 Re4 40.Kd3 Re5 41.Kc4 Re4 42.Kd3 Re5 43.Kc4 Re4 44.Kd3 Re5 45.Kc4 Re4 46.Kd3 Re5 47.Kc4 Re4
3. = (0.00): 36.Nf3 Rxe6 37.Nxg5 Rc6+ 38.Kd3 Bxc3 39.Bxc3 Rg6 40.h4 h6 41.Nf3 Rxg2 42.Bd2 Kf7 43.Bxf4 h5 44.a5 Ke6 45.Ke4 Rg4 46.Nd4+ Kf6 47.Nf3 Ke6
4. = (0.00): 36.Nce2 Kg8 37.Nc3 Kf8 and on and on.....
5. = (0.00): 36.Kb4 h6 37.Kc4 Ra5 38.Kb4 Re5 39.Kc4 Ra5 40.Kb4 Re5 41.Kc4 Ra5 42.Kb4 Re5 43.Kc4 Ra5 44.Kb4 Re5 45.Kc4 Ra5 46.Kb4 Re5 47.Kc4 Ra5
6. = (0.00): 36.Bc1 Re1 37.Bd2 Ra1 38.Nc6 Bxc3 39.Bxc3 Rxa4+ 40.Bb4 a5 41.Nxa5 h5 42.Nc6 g4 43.hxg4 hxg4 44.Ne5 f3 45.gxf3 g3 46.Ng6+ Ke8 47.Nf4 Ra2
1. = (0.00): 36.Kd3 h6 37.Ne4 Rd5 38.Bc3 Re5 39.a5 Kg8 40.g4 Kh7 41.Nf5 Rxe4 42.Kxe4 Bxc3 43.Nxe7 Kg7 44.Nd5 Bxa5 45.e7 Kf7 46.Ke5 f3 47.Kd6 f2
2. = (0.00): 36.h4 h6 37.Nce2 Re4 38.Kd3 Re5 39.Kc4 Re4 40.Kd3 Re5 41.Kc4 Re4 42.Kd3 Re5 43.Kc4 Re4 44.Kd3 Re5 45.Kc4 Re4 46.Kd3 Re5 47.Kc4 Re4
3. = (0.00): 36.Nf3 Rxe6 37.Nxg5 Rc6+ 38.Kd3 Bxc3 39.Bxc3 Rg6 40.h4 h6 41.Nf3 Rxg2 42.Bd2 Kf7 43.Bxf4 h5 44.a5 Ke6 45.Ke4 Rg4 46.Nd4+ Kf6 47.Nf3 Ke6
4. = (0.00): 36.Nce2 Kg8 37.Nc3 Kf8 and on and on.....
5. = (0.00): 36.Kb4 h6 37.Kc4 Ra5 38.Kb4 Re5 39.Kc4 Ra5 40.Kb4 Re5 41.Kc4 Ra5 42.Kb4 Re5 43.Kc4 Ra5 44.Kb4 Re5 45.Kc4 Ra5 46.Kb4 Re5 47.Kc4 Ra5
6. = (0.00): 36.Bc1 Re1 37.Bd2 Ra1 38.Nc6 Bxc3 39.Bxc3 Rxa4+ 40.Bb4 a5 41.Nxa5 h5 42.Nc6 g4 43.hxg4 hxg4 44.Ne5 f3 45.gxf3 g3 46.Ng6+ Ke8 47.Nf4 Ra2
![[mx]](/mwf/v12/flags/mx.png "Mexico")
Oh, nevermind, I've analyzed Nc3 a bit more carefully and it seems that I couldn't beat Nat12 and Vempele with it even if I was God - It draws.
I'll respect you wishes of playing to move 38.
36. Ngf3
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. f4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c5 6. Bb5+
Bd7 7. e5 Ng4 8. Bxd7+ Qxd7 9. h3 cxd4 10. Qxd4 Nc6 11. Qa4
Nh6 12. Bd2 Nf5 13. O-O-O dxe5 14. Rhe1 Nfd4 15. Be3 Rd8
16. fxe5 b5 17. Qa6 Nb4 18. Qa3 Nbxc2 19. Rxd4 Nxa3
20. Rxd7 Rxd7 21. bxa3 O-O 22. Rd1 Rxd1+ 23. Kxd1 a6 24. a4
bxa4 25. Nxa4 Rc8 26. Kd2 f6 27. e6 Rc4 28. Nc3 Rc6 29. Nd4
Rd6 30. Nce2 f5 31. a4 g5 32. Kd3 f4 33. Bd2 Rd5 34. Kc4
Re5 35. Ng1 Re4 36. Ngf3
- It draws.I'll respect you wishes of playing to move 38.
36. Ngf3
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. f4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c5 6. Bb5+
Bd7 7. e5 Ng4 8. Bxd7+ Qxd7 9. h3 cxd4 10. Qxd4 Nc6 11. Qa4
Nh6 12. Bd2 Nf5 13. O-O-O dxe5 14. Rhe1 Nfd4 15. Be3 Rd8
16. fxe5 b5 17. Qa6 Nb4 18. Qa3 Nbxc2 19. Rxd4 Nxa3
20. Rxd7 Rxd7 21. bxa3 O-O 22. Rd1 Rxd1+ 23. Kxd1 a6 24. a4
bxa4 25. Nxa4 Rc8 26. Kd2 f6 27. e6 Rc4 28. Nc3 Rc6 29. Nd4
Rd6 30. Nce2 f5 31. a4 g5 32. Kd3 f4 33. Bd2 Rd5 34. Kc4
Re5 35. Ng1 Re4 36. Ngf3
6k1/4p1bp/p3P3/6p1/P1KNrp2/5N1P/3B2P1/8 b - -
It is forced till move 38
If 36...Bxd4 37.Nxd4 Re5
So Vytron can move however and officially offer the draw.
If 36...Bxd4 37.Nxd4 Re5
6k1/4p2p/p3P3/4r1p1/P1KN1p2/7P/3B2P1/8 w - - 0 38
So Vytron can move however and officially offer the draw.
Ok:
{Draw Offer}
(I'll move 38th move if the draw offer is rejected.)
{Draw Offer}
(I'll move 38th move if the draw offer is rejected.)
![[gb]](/mwf/v12/flags/gb.png "United Kingdom")
Draw offer accepted.
Good games :) Games can be open for discussion on both threads now.
Not yet, your acceptance and Vempele's pending
This is not over yet!
This is not over yet!
![[fi]](/mwf/v12/flags/fi.png "Finland")
Yes yet, just PortCitySlim's acceptance pending. We already have a majority!
Draw offer accepted.
Draw offer accepted.
So, who's for doing it again? Say, in 10 years we gather together and say "remember when not 100% of the games ended in draws? those were the days, I propose RELAY CHESS: EL REENCUENTRO, let's make it a prequel and only use engines that were available before Rybka 3 appeared!"
Ok, Draw Offer Accepted
do you still think that 27.e6 was the best move,it tended to fix the position,we were all expecting Kd3.
I bet you can't win by playing 27.Kd3(It's draws uglier then e6, imo), I certainly liked the position better after 27.e6
the game was in all probability,drawn already by then.
I think I went wrong with some book moves very early on. The whole game I had my eye on this endgame and set out to get it. To win a match like this a good way to try to gain an advantage is to get into a position you are familiar with and one that engines do not always get right. A two minor piece vs rook and pawn match-up can a lot of the time favor the two minor pieces, so I took the bait and played for it.
> we were all expecting Kd3.
Kd3 walked right into one of Rybka many drawing lines. If I had used Rybka only then the game would have been drawn without any fight at all. I knew you guys were working mainly with Rybka just by your moves and comparing them to what Zappa and Naum were suggesting. I had to go with another chess engine to have a chance, 27.e6 was a Zappa move, and I think Naum liked it as well.
i have been using Stockfish & Zappa to look at our end game in Hiarcs forum,neither have a clue,along with Hiarcs,however if you force Hiarcs it then seems to understand what is going on.Both Rybka & Naum seem to understand much earlier and can find the moves without been forced.
I mainly focused on Hiarcs (PB2007 version) for the analysis, but it is over-optimistic, some positions were scored +0.60 but that's just because Hiarcs was pruning Rybka's moves and when you forced them the scores go to the 0.30's and start going downhill. Still, Hiarcs's attacking moves were better than Rybka's, Rybka would go into negative scores for a while until it realized it was in trouble and the score jumped over 0.00, that's why I never dropped Hiarcs, and I think it led to a good result, considering the opposition.
Besides the novelty and fun, I don't think Relay Chess is practical, on races it makes sense because runners can't add their speed up, so they take turns, but in chess you can share the analysis for an effective add up of strength, relaying is just handicapping.
I'll make it official:
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. f4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c5 6. Bb5+
Bd7 7. e5 Ng4 8. Bxd7+ Qxd7 9. h3 cxd4 10. Qxd4 Nc6 11. Qa4
Nh6 12. Bd2 Nf5 13. O-O-O dxe5 14. Rhe1 Nfd4 15. Be3 Rd8
16. fxe5 b5 17. Qa6 Nb4 18. Qa3 Nbxc2 19. Rxd4 Nxa3
20. Rxd7 Rxd7 21. bxa3 O-O 22. Rd1 Rxd1+ 23. Kxd1 a6 24. a4
bxa4 25. Nxa4 Rc8 26. Kd2 f6 27. e6 Rc4 28. Nc3 Rc6 29. Nd4
Rd6 30. Nce2 f5 31. a4 g5 32. Kd3 f4 33. Bd2 Rd5 34. Kc4
Re5 35. Ng1 Re4 36. Ngf3 1/2-1/2
{Draw Agreed.}
I've updated both thread's first post with full games.
Bobby, it would be interesting if you posted the line in where Kd3 draws
Besides the novelty and fun, I don't think Relay Chess is practical, on races it makes sense because runners can't add their speed up, so they take turns, but in chess you can share the analysis for an effective add up of strength, relaying is just handicapping.
I'll make it official:
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. f4 Nf6 5. Nf3 c5 6. Bb5+
Bd7 7. e5 Ng4 8. Bxd7+ Qxd7 9. h3 cxd4 10. Qxd4 Nc6 11. Qa4
Nh6 12. Bd2 Nf5 13. O-O-O dxe5 14. Rhe1 Nfd4 15. Be3 Rd8
16. fxe5 b5 17. Qa6 Nb4 18. Qa3 Nbxc2 19. Rxd4 Nxa3
20. Rxd7 Rxd7 21. bxa3 O-O 22. Rd1 Rxd1+ 23. Kxd1 a6 24. a4
bxa4 25. Nxa4 Rc8 26. Kd2 f6 27. e6 Rc4 28. Nc3 Rc6 29. Nd4
Rd6 30. Nce2 f5 31. a4 g5 32. Kd3 f4 33. Bd2 Rd5 34. Kc4
Re5 35. Ng1 Re4 36. Ngf3 1/2-1/2
{Draw Agreed.}
I've updated both thread's first post with full games.
Bobby, it would be interesting if you posted the line in where Kd3 draws
> Bobby, it would be interesting if you posted the line in where Kd3 draws
The line? How about linessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss :)
Sure, I will pull it up. Since I switched to Windows 7 after that move, I lost my notes but I did not lose my word document with my stored analysis. I have AN from Zappa, Naum and Rybka for move 27. Now I have to re-do my in depth work where I guide the engine through the line and correct some errors.
Zappa Mexico II:
25/59 1:24:32 22.026.463,803 4.342.039 +1.02 27.e6 Rc4 28.Nc3 Rc6 29.Nd4 Rc5 30.Kd3 f5 31.Bd2 Kf8 32.Nce2 Ke8 33.Nb3 Rc6 34.Ned4 Rc8 35.g4 fxg4 36.hxg4 Bxd4 37.Nxd4 Rb8 38.Bf4 Rb2
Naum:
32/58 1:04:32 26.460.611,281 6.833.507 +0.27 27.e6 Rc4 28.Nc3 Rc6 29.Nd4 Rc5 30.Nce2 f5 31.Bg5 Kf8 32.Kd3 Rc8 33.a4 Bh8 34.g3 Be5 35.h4 Ke8 36.Bd2 Rb8 37.Kc4 Rb2 38.Bf4 Bxf4 39.gxf4 Rb1 40.Nc3 Rh1 41.Nd5 Rc1+ 42.Kb4
Rybka 3:
27 1:44:57 1.993.484.232 324.157 +0.18 27.Kd3 fxe5 28.Nc5 Bh6 29.Bg1 Bf4 30.Ke4 Rb8 31.Nd3 Rb1 32.Bc5 Kf8 33.a3 Rb3 34.Ndxe5 Bxe5 35.Kxe5 Rc3 36.Kd4 Rc2 37.g4 Rg2 38.Ne5 Rh2 39.h4 Rxh4 40.Kd5 Rh3
27. Kd3 fxe5 28. Nc5 Bh6 29. Bg1 Bf4 30. Ke4 Rb8 31. Nd3 Rb1 32. Bc5 Ra1 33. a3 Ra2 34. g4 Re2+ 35. Kd5 Kg7
And the game is drawn about the same way....
1. = (0.01): 36.Ke6 a5 37.h4 Rc2 38.Nfxe5 Bxe5 39.Kxe5 Rc4 40.Bxe7 Rxg4 41.Nc5 a4 42.Bf6+ Kf7
2. = (0.00): 36.Ndxe5 Bxe5 37.Nxe5 Rh2 38.Bxe7 Rxh3 39.g5 h5 40.gxh6+ Kxh6 41.Ng4+ Kh5
or maybe
= 27. Kd3 fxe5 28. Nc5 Bh6 29. Bg1 Bf4 30. a4 a5 31.Ke4 Rb8 32.Nxe5 Bxe5 33.Kxe5 Rb2 34.g4
= 27. Kd3 fxe5 28. Nc5 Bh6 29. Bg1 Bf4 30. a4 a5 31.Bf2 Kf7 32.Ke4 Kf6 33.Kd5 Rd8+
And the game is drawn about the same way....
1. = (0.01): 36.Ke6 a5 37.h4 Rc2 38.Nfxe5 Bxe5 39.Kxe5 Rc4 40.Bxe7 Rxg4 41.Nc5 a4 42.Bf6+ Kf7
2. = (0.00): 36.Ndxe5 Bxe5 37.Nxe5 Rh2 38.Bxe7 Rxh3 39.g5 h5 40.gxh6+ Kxh6 41.Ng4+ Kh5
or maybe
= 27. Kd3 fxe5 28. Nc5 Bh6 29. Bg1 Bf4 30. a4 a5 31.Ke4 Rb8 32.Nxe5 Bxe5 33.Kxe5 Rb2 34.g4
= 27. Kd3 fxe5 28. Nc5 Bh6 29. Bg1 Bf4 30. a4 a5 31.Bf2 Kf7 32.Ke4 Kf6 33.Kd5 Rd8+
I've been analyzing these lines and I don't see any winning plan by white, Rybka still shows 0.00, Hiarcs likes these positions 20cp better than what we played but I won't argue against it, it's a draw pretty much.
With this information what opening moves would you choose now?
With this information what opening moves would you choose now?
I would have like to have tried 9.d5 dxe5 10.h3 e4 11.Nxe4 Nf6 12.Nxf6+ Bxf6 13.0-0. I just recently came across an opening book with several games from this line and it looks like white is in a very nice comfortable position.... but probably drawn.. lol
Or how about even 9.d5 dxe5 10.h3 e4 11.hxg4 exf3 12.Qxf3. Nah, that looks drawn too...lol. Who knows :)
Or how about even 9.d5 dxe5 10.h3 e4 11.hxg4 exf3 12.Qxf3. Nah, that looks drawn too...lol. Who knows :)
Topic The Rybka Lounge / Correspondence Chess / Relay Chess: H1N1 Junkies Vs. NATIONAL12 & Vempele 1/2-1/2
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