Both positions are just one of them? I think that your game with white is 100% drawn and this endgame is a madhouse where some engines think white is completely won and others think white is slightly won. :)

It's cool, I hope your right. I would feel bad giving you the draw in a won position. LOL, actually I would not feel bad since this game was more of a fun experiment then a "kill or be killed" challenge. :)

>Did you expect this move from me

Honestly it seems to be the move that the chess engines I am using like so far, but I was hoping Ne4 or something more "aggressive" (a4?!) would come about, although I had not planned a way to force the win yet. If it had been my move I wold have tried to find a way to make something else work despite the better score for Nce2/Kd3 but like I said had no plan better then the line you choose. Zappa still has this position scored at slightly higher then +1.00 and Naum has it ~.25 then Rybka at ~0.10. So white has got to have some chance, I saw this endgame exactly like this when I played Qa4 and I wanted the 2 minor piece vs rook and pawn position hoping that somehow we could win blacks a-pawn and have a very clear advantage. Now the engines do not seem to be willing to play for the a-pawn just yet, but if I knew I could force a way to win it I would not be talking about offering a draw. I am still hesitant when we are getting scores higher then .25 out of engines that have been known to play better endgames then Rybka.

FWIW, My wife recently had surgery and has been feeling sick lately because of a post-surgery virus infection and I am finding it hard to find enough time to crack a seriously tough position like this one. This is a friendly game and a "fun" game so if you think that considering this we would not be able to force a win here then I have no problems taking a draw on this or the other game. I would accept a draw right now on the other game but I think the other team might want to see how we play up to move 32 or so first. After that the game should be clearly drawn due to the lack of mobility of some of the pieces on both whites and blacks side(Black is threatening mate on f1 if whites rook leaves the 1st rank)

Hold that above thought. I want to give this position one last crack tonight, I got a few hours to do some interactive work and then all night to run some long analysis. If I can not find anything that looks good enough then I will offer a draw if that is fine by you? By the rules I have to move first and then offer the draw, so I will make my choice and a draw offer if I decide that is what I want to do.

> I don't think it's a "dead draw."

Another point, Vempele implying that he has solved this position to a draw might be a bit misleading, kind of like me making it seem like I had a "forced win". You can not solve this position to a draw, there are too many millions of playable lines left, IMO. You can however solve this to a draw on chess principle, if you can prove a solid way of using the same idea to force all possible positions into a , hmm what would the word be, "theoretical draw?" IE, if all the pawns were removed then KNNB vs KRB is a draw in most positions. Also, obviously two knights cannot mate a lone king. Finding a forced win in this position might be like finding a specific electron on a specific atom in a specific molecule in a needle in a haystack the size of Mount Everest, LOL, hows that for an analogy? Maybe I will make that my new sig, hehe.

IDeA - 0 positions.
:facepalm: