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Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) Date 2008-09-29 21:31
well done for doing this. Poor Shredder is only on 1/3 after all this time!

I like the way Junior is playing
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-09-29 21:35
It is too early to say anything really. Some slow starters faced tougher opposition in first rounds etc. I watched only Junior's 1st game against Shredder, and it rocks! I'll check now the other 2, before round 4 starts. I only hope someone will post the game progress here.
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-09-29 22:24
My impressions on Junior play so far ... well, it won Round 2 game with white v Toga, playing Poissoned Pawn famous e5 variation, and although Toga stayed in the book longer by some 5-6 moves, came out only equal or so. IMHO Junior didn't choose the optimal line. Anyway, Toga soon blunders, and it is all over against such a tactical monster.
Round 3 game v Jonny went quite good for Jonny, coming an exchange for a pawn up, but then Junior plays some moves other engines wouldn't even consider for seriously (...g4!) which slowly degenerate Jonny's King safety. And soon goes a punch. Ending played weirdly, not optimal, by Junior.

All in all, it is a good old Junior, whatever that means. :-)
Unpredictable!
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2008-09-29 23:39
I like the way Junior is playing

Maybe we will see a tough final. Junior is playing Rybka in the last round with white! And in the round before, Rybka has to beat Hiarcs with white.

PS: Maybe Shredder is the only engine making a draw against the new WCCC Junior (8.5/9)! :-)
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-09-29 23:44
No way. I am pretty sure, from what I've seen so far, that Junior will be outplayed by R3, on account of many small mistakes.
Parent - - By Roland Rösler (****) Date 2008-09-30 00:03
Okay, but I have seen one big mistake from R3 (Qxf6)! She was lucky (?), that this mistake didn´t throw away the win. It´s like a dance on a razor blade.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-09-30 00:05
You have a point there.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-09-30 00:10
Anyway, still nothing from Beijing tonight. Games shoud have started 10 minutes ago, right? Shredder live is dead, too.
Parent - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-09-30 00:34
So, noone to transmit Rybka game from Playchess?
Parent - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2008-10-01 06:34
That bug was fixed
Parent - By turbojuice1122 (Gold) Date 2008-10-03 23:44
Nice flag. :-)  Say "hi" to my girlfriend if you see her. :-)
Parent - - By lexdom (*) Date 2008-09-30 04:09
from: http://www.hiarcs.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1677&start=60

[Event "95'/60+30'"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2008.09.30"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Rybka 3"]
[Black "Jonny"]
[Result "1-0"]
[PlyCount "55"]
[TimeControl "60/5700:0/0:1800"]

{319MB, BeijingA.ctg} 1. e4 {B/0 0} e5 {7} 2. Nf3 {B/0 0} Nc6 {7} 3. Bb5 {B/0 0
} a6 {6} 4. Ba4 {B/0 0} Nf6 {6} 5. O-O {B/0 0} Be7 {6} 6. d3 {B/0 0} b5 {6} 7.
Bb3 {B/0 0} O-O {7} 8. a4 {B/0 0} Bb7 {7} 9. Re1 {B/0 0} Re8 {7} 10. c3 {B/0 0}
Bc5 {644} 11. Bd2 {0.35/20 324} h6 {553} 12. Na3 {0.34/21 1} Qb8 {10} 13. Nh4 {
0.46/18 166} d6 {280} 14. Qf3 {0.94/18 205} b4 {31} 15. Nf5 {1.55/18 64} Bc8 {
251} 16. Nxh6+ {1.73/18 1} Kh7 {633} 17. Bxf7 {1.78/17 61} Rf8 {101} 18. Nc4 {
1.81/18 1} bxc3 {647} 19. bxc3 {1.83/17 39} Kh8 {97} 20. d4 {3.14/18 138} Bxd4
{315} 21. Bg5 {3.69/16 32} Nh7 {99} 22. cxd4 {4.01/17 1} Be6 {230} 23. Qh5 {5.
12/19 1} Bxf7 {102} 24. Nxf7+ {4.57/14 12} Kg8 {36} 25. Nh6+ {5.01/17 45} Kh8 {
11} 26. dxe5 {5.08/20 141} Qe8 {11} 27. Qh3 {5.41/20 137} Nxe5 {16} 28. Nxe5 {
5.36/16 26} 1-0
Parent - - By Carl Bicknell (*****) Date 2008-09-30 04:47
A STUNNING game. What I want to know is - was 13Nh4 in book or not?
Parent - By chessfreak (*) Date 2008-09-30 05:45
Looking at the game above the answer is NO.

That move was thought & played by rybka.

Mark
Parent - - By DamirD81 (***) Date 2008-10-01 14:37
Hi Jeroen

Is it not possible to talk to the WCCC organizers, and tell them to change the outcome of the game, where Rybka lost on time in a winning position, with a mate in 12 moves?

Damir
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2008-10-01 16:00
Yes sure and also the one where Hiarcs had mate in 8 against Jonny and lost on time. This is the blitz tourny and the rules are the rules.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-10-01 16:04
either an increment or direct tranmission of the moves without board, so that luck and the human is not such a big factor
Parent - - By Harvey Williamson (*****) Date 2008-10-01 16:14
In an ideal world you are right. The blitz tourny is a bit of fun and a lot of fun to play - great sportsmanship shown by all - including Hans after he played with Fritz 5.32 in r1. btw - all those using remote use F 5.32 as you have to load something else before loading your remote engine - and as fritz does not pre-load tbs this is the obvious choice to save time.
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-10-01 16:33
I just noticed that the sentence in my last post was not finished :)

There are also some advantages with those rules, it's good that the chance for the weaker programs is better because of those rules. And even if Sjeng is not as strong as Rybka, it's a strong program and the victory is not undeserved.
Parent - - By Venator (Silver) Date 2008-09-30 10:21
Hm, who copied the schedule into this thread!? It wasn't me.....  Anyway, thanks to Harvey for publishing the whole schedule.

R4 games
Baron v Sjeng  1/2-1/2
Hiarcs v Mobile  1-0
Junior v falcon  1/2-1/2
Rybka v Jonny  1-0
Shredder v Toga  1/2-1/2

Standings after round 4

1. Rybka, Hiarcs  3.5
3. Junior  3.0
4. Sjeng  2.5
5. The Baron  2.0
6. Shredder, Cluster Toga, Falcon  1.5
9. Jonny  1.0
10. Mobile Chess  0.0

Wednesday round (starting 4:00 Central Eurpean time, 22:00 NY time):

R5 games
Toga v The baron
jonny v Shredder
falcon v rybka
mobile v junior
sjeng v hiarcs

Remaining rounds:

R6 games
baron v hiarcs
junior v sjeng
rybka v mobile
shredder v falcon
toga v jonny

R7 games
jonny v baron
falcon v toga
mobile v shredder
sjeng v rybka
hiarcs v junior

r8 games
baron v junior
rybka v hiarcs
shredder v sjeng
toga v mobile
jonny v falcon

r9 games
falcon v the baron
mobile v jonny
sjeng v toga
hiarcs v shredder
junior v rybka
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-09-30 10:32
Thanks Jeroen. I noted hamsters have a decent coverage on their forum, thanks to Harvey being there actually. One thing though, their standing after round 4 is: Hiarcs, Rybka 3.5 ..., easily neglecting the fact that Hiarcs faced an order of magnitude weaker opponents so far. :-)
Parent - - By Linus (***) Date 2008-09-30 10:51

> ... their standing after round 4 is: Hiarcs, Rybka 3.5 ..., easily neglecting the fact that Hiarcs faced an order of magnitude weaker opponents so far.


What do you want them to do? This is the score. It has been reported correctly. And Rybka also has some strong opponents left (Hiarcs, Sjeng).
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-09-30 11:25
According to SB criteria, Rybka has 5.25 and Hiarcs 3.25 SB points, so Rybka should be first.
Parent - By Linus (***) Date 2008-09-30 11:37

> ... so Rybka should be first.


She will be, don't worry. Unless she loses against the Phone tomorrow ;)
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-09-30 14:47
It was me. I also added a note to inform you about it :) you should have seen one at the start page of our forum...
Parent - By Venator (Silver) Date 2008-09-30 19:37
Ah yes, now I remember :-).
Parent - By Venator (Silver) Date 2008-10-01 07:00
R5 games
Toga v The baron  1-0
jonny v Shredder  1/2-1/2
falcon v rybka  0-1
mobile v junior  0-1
sjeng v hiarcs  0-1

Standings after round 5:

1. Rybka, Hiarcs  4.5
3. Junior  4.0
4. Cluster Toga, Sjeng  2.5
6. Shredder, The Baron  2.0
8. Jonny, Falcon  1.5
10. Mobile Chess  0.0

What's more today

Blitz World championship

Next round (on Friday, Thursday is a free day:

R6 games
baron v hiarcs
junior v sjeng
rybka v mobile
shredder v falcon
toga v jonny
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-09-30 10:47
Jeroen, do you have a special gambit book for the game against the mobile? I mean Rybka should win the title for winning the quickest game against the mobile :)
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-09-30 13:36 Edited 2008-09-30 13:40
Here's the hardware as reported on ICGA. Couple of things catch my eye: GCP has only 2.8 on his quad? Hell, even I got mine 24/7 stable up to 3.15 on air, without knowing anything what's in the box! Also, Israeli Falcon is on mere 2x2.1 Core 2 Duo?? This is considered below entry-level PC for mass market even here in Croatia, where everything is SO EXPENSIVE and SO OUT-OF-DATE for no reason at all!

Rank Program Origin Hardware
1 Rybka  USA Cluster, 40 cores
2 Hiarcs  GBR Intel Skulltrail, 8 x 4Ghz
3 Sjeng  BEL Intel Core 2, 4 x 2.8Ghz
4 Junior  ISR Intel Dunnington, 12 x 2.67Ghz
5 The Baron  NLD AMD Opteron 270, 4 x 2Ghz
6 Jonny  DEU Cluster, 16 cores
7 Cluster Toga  DEU Cluster, 24 cores
8 Shredder  DEU Intel Core 2, 8 x 3.16Ghz
9 Falcon  ISR Intel Core 2, 2 x 2.1Ghz
10 Mobile Chess  CHN Nokia 6120c
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-09-30 13:39
Also Junior's hardware is interesting, 2x a 6 core cpu.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-09-30 13:41 Edited 2008-09-30 13:44
Yes, what is this Donnington? This a new Intel brand? Like Core7 or whatever it is called?

Edit: it is a Dunnington???
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-09-30 13:43
that's the new Intel 6 core cpu, planned to be released later this year.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-09-30 14:48
Its already been released. Its very expensive though, so I doubt many here will be using it.

Regards,
Alan
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-09-30 14:47
Yes, that is interesting. Someone told me in another thread that these were only supported in a four socket motherboard configuration.

Regards,
Alan
Parent - By Carl Bicknell (*****) Date 2008-09-30 17:12

> Also Junior's hardware is interesting, 2x a 6 core cpu.


fairly low clock speed though
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-09-30 14:48
Hans' report from sunday:

Sunday 28:
At 8:30 the bus brought us to the venue. I have no idea why we couldn't play in the hotel. The tournamenthall was on the premises of a golfcomplex. When they built the fence, it never crossed their minds that one day a bus may have to go through. To reach the complex they made a bumpy, sandroad to avoid the gate. In the building they changed a room into a sort of collegeroom. They put about 30 computers there in 3 rows of 10 very close together, plus some loose internetcables for those persons with a laptop. Half of the cables was not plugged in though. There also was no room for it in the router. The cables that were plugged in had internetcrashes sometimes after 10 seconds. We didn't have much time to think about it, because we were expected outside for the opening. The organisation had rounded up three busloads of chinese extra's, to clap their hands during the speeches. I have never seen so many people at a tournament, who clearly weren't interested in computers. Later, already half an hour passed the first round startingtime, we continued the playermeeting. After that, David Levy asked who wanted to play an exhibition game against the top chinese women grandmaster. Five fingers quickly went up, but since Rybka is the current titleholder, I was chosen. This lady, Gu Xiao Bing, was also the interviewer for the chinese television. When she interviewed me en heard who her opponent was, she looked startled and said, "Ribbèca, I always lose". She lost indeed 2-0, but her first game wasn't bad. Back to the tournamenthall, where the long wait began. Finally they found someone with knowledge about computers, who was able to 'pimp up' the internet in such a way, that our chinese host didn't have to execute a ritual suicide out of shame. Only 4½ hours late we started the first round. We decided to skip the second. All programs connected to the internet had 2 to 6 crashes. But luckily it was not of real influence to the game. I am curious what tomorrow will bring.
_________________
Parent - - By M ANSARI (*****) Date 2008-09-30 15:12
It is interesting to note how a poor internet connection can crash an engine.  I noticed that a lot on Playchess when I have poor internet connectivity.  I am not sure if it is the GUI that crashes or the internet.  Last 3 months I have had the most unbeleivably poor internet connection possible.  I pay around $300 a month for what is supposed to be a 1mb DSL connection and I am happy when I get 96kbps.  Also the lag is so bad that I have given up playing rated games on Playchess due to the large amount of profanities I have had to endure ... somehow people think that when you have a poor internet connection then you are somehow taking advantage.  Nothing could be further from the truth as I always gain at least 200 ELO points when I play on Playchess from Europe or the US.

Having said that, I think that really there should be an overhaul of how these tournaments are run.  Chess is made for the internet ... I think the internet coverage of this WCCC has been nothing short of criminal.  By far the most important thing is the live broadcasting of games and you would think that in 2008 we would get live moves + some sort of live video.  There is really no excuse for not having a decent internet connection, and I for one am very disappointed.  These tournaments don't happen very often and it would be great to be able to follow them live and get a real feel of the games.
Parent - By Axel Caro (**) Date 2008-09-30 16:45
I fully agree: it's unbelievable how amateur-like these "organizers" act on a world-championship! :-(
Parent - By Lukas Cimiotti (Bronze) Date 2008-09-30 17:53
Well in fact the internet connection is now much better as they play in the hotel. Yesterday and today we had not a single disconnect. But I agree - a live coverage would be great. But some games have been brodcasted on Playchess.
Parent - By ChessMate (***) Date 2008-09-30 19:23

> I pay around $300 a month for what is supposed to be a 1mb DSL connection and I am happy when I get 96kbps


This is tooooooooooooo   much expensive.

Here in Pakistan 1 Mb DSL connection could easily be obtained in  30$ per month .  Really !.
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-09-30 20:02
and monday... why isn't he posting in our forum?! :) :

Monday 29:
The previous evening we held a playermeeting, in which it was decided to try to play in the hotel. Harvey would try to make his Mac function as a wireless router. When it seemed not to work, I decided to go back to my room. Next day I got into the bus and 1 minute before departure someone asked me if I shouldn't be playing in the hotel. Apparantly Harvey made it work after all and nobody told me. The things they try to prevent Rybka from winning the tournament. There was a beautiful room available where 10 programs had more than enough room. And more important; not one internetcrash in 2 rounds. And a beautiful view at the lake and smog. In the lunchbreak I ordered a fruitsalad. It consisted of 2 types of melon and some tomato's. There are some strange things going on with the food. They don't know bread, but for us europeans they made
something looking like bread. Too bad it all tastes sweet. At breakfast the
orange and pineapplejuice are hot. If you order a juice in the hotel you get a whole liter. It took some days before the beer was finally cold enough to the taste of a foreigner. Stefan (Shredder) and I ordered a coke and got 1½ liter both. And I expect to encounter some more funny things the next days. Now that we played in the hotel, I finally had the time to visit the masseuse. It was a sort of chinese torture, but the doctor says I am able to play tomorrow.
Parent - By Banned for Life (Gold) Date 2008-09-30 21:27
They don't know bread, but for us europeans they made something looking like bread. Too bad it all tastes sweet.

Tell him not to worry about the sweet taste. That's probably just the melamine.

Regards,
Alan
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2008-09-30 19:10
Any thoughts on why Rybka is not performing (on 40 cores) as well as HIARCS is performing (on 8 cores)?
Parent - - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-09-30 19:15
who says Hiarcs is performing better?
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2008-09-30 19:17
From the games I have looked at and bearing in mind the relative hardware difference - this is how it looks to me.
Parent - By Felix Kling (Gold) Date 2008-09-30 19:30
I think those few games tell you not much.
Parent - - By pokerpawn (***) Date 2008-10-01 06:55
we will see in round 8 that's where the title will be won :)
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2008-10-01 17:44
Not interested in titles (especially this one where the playing platform is skewed) - I'm interested in the quality of chess being played - my point still stands I feel - HIARCS on 8-cores appears to me to be more or less in the same ball-park as RYBKA on 40-cores - why is that - this certainly is not what I expected.
Parent - - By Dragon Mist (****) Date 2008-10-01 19:19
Unless you are at least 2700 FIDE (and even then!), you are not able to spot subtle differences in the play of 3100-3250 ELO engines, and especially comparing one to another.
Parent - - By Razor (****) Date 2008-10-01 21:19
I can tell.

I do have a high OTB rating but this is not essential - I can see very clear evidence from the moves played by both the HIARCS and RYBKA engines to suggest that there levels of chess comprehension are very similar in so many ways - it would be interesting for those who have both engines to see how often they select the same move given the same position - I suspect there would be a high incidence of this occurring.

The main point I raise is that given the enormous hardware difference, the difference between the two engines doesn't seem that great - I would have thought the recent blitz tournament would indicate this more eloquently than I can put in to words.
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